OK - so having had my **se kicked at the BB200 after carrying kilos of excess kit, and also having entered the Highland Trail for next year (oh SH** !!) I'm on a mission to lower the amount of stuff i have to carry.
On the hit list so far is a Wasatch Bivvy @ 100g vs my alpkit @ 376g, a Klymit Inertia X frame @ 257g vs my Alpkit Airo 3/4 @ 439 - anyone got any experience of these products ? As I reckon it I'll save close to 500g whilst improving my sleep quality.
I'm also thinking about getting an ultralight minimlist tarp as I'll be riding in scotland - anyone got any good suggestions on this ? cuben fiber ??
Help greatly appreciated as always
Weight weenyism
Moderators: Bearbonesnorm, Taylor, Chew
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Weight weenyism
Wasatch bivvy is about the lightest out there, I looked at Ians on at weekend and it's very nice.
I'd be tempted by a sil' tarp rather than cuben. Cuben doesn't have any 'stretch' in it which can make getting a nice tight pitch awkward ... there's also the durability issue. Siltarp 1 maybe ?
I've not tried the Inertia mat but I do know it has an R value of 1 which means it offers no insulation at all. I'd be more tempted by a Neoair Xlite (small) which is 260g and has an R value of 3.2.
I'd be tempted by a sil' tarp rather than cuben. Cuben doesn't have any 'stretch' in it which can make getting a nice tight pitch awkward ... there's also the durability issue. Siltarp 1 maybe ?
I've not tried the Inertia mat but I do know it has an R value of 1 which means it offers no insulation at all. I'd be more tempted by a Neoair Xlite (small) which is 260g and has an R value of 3.2.
May the bridges you burn light your way
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Cheeky Monkey
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Re: Weight weenyism
I'm not a weenie, I just have "something" for stuff made out of Ti. I can't be assed to lug excess weight but I also can't be bothered to weigh stuff. Don't know where I fall on the OCD scale that seems to be some people's obsession 
Sleeping bags can be heavy, you don't mention yours?
I assume you've looked at your bike as well. A pair of steel beaded high rollers is going to make a huge difference compared to a lot of lighter tyres. Potentially cheaper and easier to address than fancy bivi's etc. I think going from a Deore to XT cassette makes over 100gms of difference as well, never mind the crankset.
You can go too far though and light can compromise comfort and subsequently "fun"? I think I lie well towards the "lover" not a "fighter" end of the scale. Where you are on the spectrum only you can decide (or find out )
Sleeping bags can be heavy, you don't mention yours?
I assume you've looked at your bike as well. A pair of steel beaded high rollers is going to make a huge difference compared to a lot of lighter tyres. Potentially cheaper and easier to address than fancy bivi's etc. I think going from a Deore to XT cassette makes over 100gms of difference as well, never mind the crankset.
You can go too far though and light can compromise comfort and subsequently "fun"? I think I lie well towards the "lover" not a "fighter" end of the scale. Where you are on the spectrum only you can decide (or find out
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Re: Weight weenyism
No point in taking a 100g bivvy bag if you rip it getting into it the first time you use it (and you're on a 4/5 day Highland Trail race). Make sure it's not StupidLite.
As Cheeky Monkey says, go and weigh you tyres / wheels. Spending £300 losing 500g rotating mass will be worth more than the same money lightening sleeping kit.
As Cheeky Monkey says, go and weigh you tyres / wheels. Spending £300 losing 500g rotating mass will be worth more than the same money lightening sleeping kit.
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Cheeky Monkey
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Re: Weight weenyism
In consideration following my post I have concluded that I like lighter gear because it compensates for my low fitness and bodily bulk 
Re: Weight weenyism
Good solid advice on the bike and rotating weight, unfortunately current bike is a carbon 29er with a list of carbon goodies, xtr etc and weighs 23lbs with pedals. I do however have a few other "spare" kilos to lose which i'm sure will offer up some benefits i.e. going uphill...
Sleeping bag is a PD400 which whilst not silly light will at least keep me warm
The Klymit mat doesn't have an R value but it does apparently allow the bag to loft under you so maybe compensates that way ?
Any actual recommendations for a tarp I can buy ? was thinking of something pretty minimal just to really cover the bivvy bag and using the bike to set it up
Sleeping bag is a PD400 which whilst not silly light will at least keep me warm
The Klymit mat doesn't have an R value but it does apparently allow the bag to loft under you so maybe compensates that way ?
Any actual recommendations for a tarp I can buy ? was thinking of something pretty minimal just to really cover the bivvy bag and using the bike to set it up
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Weight weenyism
Yes, I mentioned one, you must have missed it - http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/ ... ltarp.htmlAny actual recommendations for a tarp I can buy ?
May the bridges you burn light your way
Re: Weight weenyism
Got it - ta
Re: Weight weenyism
The Siltarp 1 is OK, cheap, well made (as much as a rectangular piece of material can be) and straight forward-ish to put up. It can be pitched around a bike in a couple of different configurations, or thanks to the central tab, can be hung from a branch and guyed out (though I've never done this).
Cuben is slightly strange stuff until you become familiar with it. It has a number of different attributes compared to Silnylon. Silnylon is heavier, slippy to handle (and therefore difficult to handle in some situations) and difficult to repair if you get a tear. However, it is easier to get really taut and therefore much quieter if pitched in the wind. Cuben is about half the weight, but despite that, the nature of the fabric means doesn't allow you to pack it down to half the size of Sil'. Pitched well, with an adequate support, cuben will pitch nearly as tight as Sil'. If you get a tear, it is repairable with gaffer tape.
I like my Zpacks Hexamid tarp, but it has taken a while to get used to it, and it's only really demonstrated its true potential now I have a robust carbon pole for it.
As a general observation towards weight-weenie-ism, the lighter you get things the more important it becomes to treat them as a system where the performance of one component is likely to be dependent on the performance (or presence) of another. E.g. the Wasatch Bivvy will not be good on its own due to the materials only being "very water resistant". It also doesn't have taped seams, but my principle reason for buying it was packed size (or lack of), and that its primary purpose is to keep the dew (or rain spray) off while under my tarp. It may not also be big enough to put a sleeping mat inside, which might affect your sleeping bag choice. If you can get a mat inside, then you'd need a ground sheet protector as the floor fabric is very thin, and so on etc...
Cuben is slightly strange stuff until you become familiar with it. It has a number of different attributes compared to Silnylon. Silnylon is heavier, slippy to handle (and therefore difficult to handle in some situations) and difficult to repair if you get a tear. However, it is easier to get really taut and therefore much quieter if pitched in the wind. Cuben is about half the weight, but despite that, the nature of the fabric means doesn't allow you to pack it down to half the size of Sil'. Pitched well, with an adequate support, cuben will pitch nearly as tight as Sil'. If you get a tear, it is repairable with gaffer tape.
I like my Zpacks Hexamid tarp, but it has taken a while to get used to it, and it's only really demonstrated its true potential now I have a robust carbon pole for it.
As a general observation towards weight-weenie-ism, the lighter you get things the more important it becomes to treat them as a system where the performance of one component is likely to be dependent on the performance (or presence) of another. E.g. the Wasatch Bivvy will not be good on its own due to the materials only being "very water resistant". It also doesn't have taped seams, but my principle reason for buying it was packed size (or lack of), and that its primary purpose is to keep the dew (or rain spray) off while under my tarp. It may not also be big enough to put a sleeping mat inside, which might affect your sleeping bag choice. If you can get a mat inside, then you'd need a ground sheet protector as the floor fabric is very thin, and so on etc...
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Cheeky Monkey
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Re: Weight weenyism
Fair play your bike sounds like it's sorted, was just an obvious question.
Have a look at Borah Gear if you want a reasonably priced, pack-small bivi. They also do a cuben version.
Have a look at Borah Gear if you want a reasonably priced, pack-small bivi. They also do a cuben version.
Re: Weight weenyism
Going lightweight can just mean carrying less stuff. On the BB200, how much stuff did you bring back having never used it (including food)?
Next time, leave it at home (unless it would be silly to leave it - 1st aid kit might fit into this category).
Then, go through what you have left and remove half.
Then weigh it.
If it weighs more than x kg (maybe 5kg for a 2-3 day trip), take some more out.
Then start buying lighter kit - no point buying loads of lightweight kit if when you pack it there's so much of it it's heavy.
On the BB200 I took: base layer, buff, waterproof, Rab TopBag, Alpkit Hunka bivvy, 2 water bottles (1 full, 1 with only powder so I could fill it when the other one was nearly empty), then energy bars, gels, malt loaf and jam and honey sandwiches (nothing like some feelgood food when you hit that low patch). I should have taken a balloon bed and full thermals if I planned to stop out, which luckily I didn't have to. The balloon bed is a right PIA to get set up (esp with cold hands), but it is only 100g. A foam mat cut down is only 150g and gives a level of insulation, but is a bit bulky (but only £3!). Most of this in an 8litre drybag and a small camelback (I didn't have a rucksack small enough!)
Lots of people seemed to be carrying tents, tarps, poles, big rucksacks etc etc. I work on the principle that if you have a big rucksack you'll fill it, so always take a rucksack/pack that is smaller than you might need - if gear won't fit in then you have to leave it at home (or find a way of strapping it to the bike).
Remember - lighter is faster, and more fun while you're riding, but could be less fun when you're stopped.
(Make sure you read the weather forecast for a few days prior - helps pack the right level of kit)
Next time, leave it at home (unless it would be silly to leave it - 1st aid kit might fit into this category).
Then, go through what you have left and remove half.
Then weigh it.
If it weighs more than x kg (maybe 5kg for a 2-3 day trip), take some more out.
Then start buying lighter kit - no point buying loads of lightweight kit if when you pack it there's so much of it it's heavy.
On the BB200 I took: base layer, buff, waterproof, Rab TopBag, Alpkit Hunka bivvy, 2 water bottles (1 full, 1 with only powder so I could fill it when the other one was nearly empty), then energy bars, gels, malt loaf and jam and honey sandwiches (nothing like some feelgood food when you hit that low patch). I should have taken a balloon bed and full thermals if I planned to stop out, which luckily I didn't have to. The balloon bed is a right PIA to get set up (esp with cold hands), but it is only 100g. A foam mat cut down is only 150g and gives a level of insulation, but is a bit bulky (but only £3!). Most of this in an 8litre drybag and a small camelback (I didn't have a rucksack small enough!)
Lots of people seemed to be carrying tents, tarps, poles, big rucksacks etc etc. I work on the principle that if you have a big rucksack you'll fill it, so always take a rucksack/pack that is smaller than you might need - if gear won't fit in then you have to leave it at home (or find a way of strapping it to the bike).
Remember - lighter is faster, and more fun while you're riding, but could be less fun when you're stopped.
(Make sure you read the weather forecast for a few days prior - helps pack the right level of kit)
Re: Weight weenyism
Hopefully not too much of a hijack, but on the weight front, much though I like my Swift, the time has come to shed some in the bike frame dept. - done wheels/tyre as much as I'd like, bars, stem, seatpost etc too - so, the question (I think) has to be; carbon or titanium?
On Carbon; I have a 26". Yes, nice and light, but, despite it having been banged around far more than I ever thought possible, when it's loaded up with gear there's always a little voice at the back of the brain saying 'be careful it might break'. Then there's the 'fact' (?) that carbon must 'wear out' sometime...
On Titanium; Never had one, so not sure if it really is the wonder material that's claimed. Also all the horror stories of cracked frames, reluctant/tardy repairs don't exactly inspire me with purchasing confidence, but that said, the simple tubes do appeal - swoopy carbon just looks plastic-fantastic to my 20th century mind and it's not exactly frame bag friendly. What's more titanium is always pitched as the one material that you can 'have for life' and, with a garage full of now redundant ('been there, done that' 26" &/or suspension) frames, that really appeals. But, leaving aside making a change for another kind of bike, is it really 'true'?
In a nutshell, if the Pegasus was still available, I'd probably be getting out the plastic now..
Thoughts/comments/advice/links?
Thanks all..
On Carbon; I have a 26". Yes, nice and light, but, despite it having been banged around far more than I ever thought possible, when it's loaded up with gear there's always a little voice at the back of the brain saying 'be careful it might break'. Then there's the 'fact' (?) that carbon must 'wear out' sometime...
On Titanium; Never had one, so not sure if it really is the wonder material that's claimed. Also all the horror stories of cracked frames, reluctant/tardy repairs don't exactly inspire me with purchasing confidence, but that said, the simple tubes do appeal - swoopy carbon just looks plastic-fantastic to my 20th century mind and it's not exactly frame bag friendly. What's more titanium is always pitched as the one material that you can 'have for life' and, with a garage full of now redundant ('been there, done that' 26" &/or suspension) frames, that really appeals. But, leaving aside making a change for another kind of bike, is it really 'true'?
In a nutshell, if the Pegasus was still available, I'd probably be getting out the plastic now..
Thoughts/comments/advice/links?
Thanks all..
Re: Weight weenyism
No.royAB wrote:titanium is always pitched as the one material that you can 'have for life'....is it really 'true'?
A titanium tube will last forever. A titanium frame seems to have a lifespan of 8-10 years max.
It seems to be near impossible to weld two titanium tubes together without weakening the finished article such that it'll break under repeated 'normal' usage.
Realistically a carbon or even alloy frame will last as long as a Ti one but be half the price. A steel frame is for life as you can repair damage to it.
I put my money where my mouth is in July; I abandoned thoughts of titanium and bought the Scandium alloy Niner frame I'd always wanted. It will probably crack in 5 years, but it was 1/3 of the price of a Singular Pegasus and is 1600g for a large frame.
Re: Weight weenyism
Ahh, yes. Scandium. Didn't have that on my list - probably because I saw one fail spectacularly at the CLIC24 some years back & nearly impale the rider 
Light I know, but robust enough for bikepacking duties and not a bit of an 'aluminium' ride? (am getting old & need comfort 
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Light I know, but robust enough for bikepacking duties and not a bit of an 'aluminium' ride? (am getting old & need comfort )Re: Weight weenyism
Some thoughts on that:royAB wrote:Ahh, yes. Scandium. Didn't have that on my list - probably because I saw one fail spectacularly at the CLIC24 some years back & nearly impale the rider
Scandium failing spectacularly: well, there's the chance of that happening with most frames, post-crash etc, but I admit alloy parts are usually thought to be worse for that failure mode. I've only ever had alloy frames fail by cracking, and always spotted the crack before complete failure. Your single-statistic-point
catastrophic failure frame may have been stacked just before it's death...need more info.Robust enough for bikepacking: well, the Pegasus turned out not to be in more than one case, so don't just look at material; you need to look at design etc. I would not expect mine to fail because it's been rubbed a little by a framebag, and the frame doesn't com with a rider weight limit.
Aluminium ride: Perhaps. There's a Niner official vid that reckons on a scale of 1 to 10, a bog standard alloy frame being 1 and their MCR (magic carpet ride) steel frame being 10, they'd give the Scandium frame a 7. I've done the BB200 and a 12hr enduro solo on mine, and yes it's harsher than my Singular Swift (which I also love and will probably contiune as my 'riding for fun' bikepacking bike). But I'm fine with that because it's faster. You may not be fine with that trade off.
In fact, it sounds like you need a steel frame. How about a Swift?
Re: Weight weenyism
.... I too thoroughly enjoy my Swift's steely comfort, but it's not exactly feather-light :( .. hence my search..
Interesting on the 7 out of 10 score though. Had a look at the 9er site just now and they do obviously use all the tricks available to an alloy designer. Thing is, alloy's material structure does just offer fewer options to tune it no matter how clever the design. Still, I'd not considered scandium, so thanks for noting it....weight-wise it certainly has to be worth a look.
(The scandium failure was a seat tube shear on a brand new frame which nearly made a he a she. Consensus on the day was that the tube walls were just too thin..so more a design failure and that can apply to any material.)
Interesting on the 7 out of 10 score though. Had a look at the 9er site just now and they do obviously use all the tricks available to an alloy designer. Thing is, alloy's material structure does just offer fewer options to tune it no matter how clever the design. Still, I'd not considered scandium, so thanks for noting it....weight-wise it certainly has to be worth a look.
(The scandium failure was a seat tube shear on a brand new frame which nearly made a he a she. Consensus on the day was that the tube walls were just too thin..so more a design failure and that can apply to any material.)
Re: Weight weenyism
Interesting about the sheared scandium frame. Hope it wasn't a Niner! (Can only think of On One, or maybe Kinesis?)
Thought I'd just reiterate that the scandium choice was made because I'm not a big fan of carbon, and my trust in titanium didn't match the price. However, this is a weight weenie thread, in which the relative lifespan/price/suitability of a item is usually forgotten if it's a few grams lighter.
(I always lusted after a Litespeed Ghisallo Ti road frame, and no amount of 'its so flexy it's almost unridable' reviews would put me off. Weight weenie disease. Wonder how many of them are still in one piece?)
Thought I'd just reiterate that the scandium choice was made because I'm not a big fan of carbon, and my trust in titanium didn't match the price. However, this is a weight weenie thread, in which the relative lifespan/price/suitability of a item is usually forgotten if it's a few grams lighter.
(I always lusted after a Litespeed Ghisallo Ti road frame, and no amount of 'its so flexy it's almost unridable' reviews would put me off. Weight weenie disease. Wonder how many of them are still in one piece?)
Re: Weight weenyism
Scandium incident was a good few (12?) years back & I can't remember the name - not likely to have been any of the mentioned though.