Are they allowed to do this in Scotland?

restlessshawn · Post by **restlessshawn** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:54 am

I've ridden this track loads of times over the years then today I found this

Mariner · Post by **Mariner** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:14 am

Could be an insurance/liability get out if an accident happens to someone through lack of maintenance?
How is the footpath described on OS?

psling · Post by **psling** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:26 am

No idea if allowed or not but always makes me smile when I see those signs with the diagonal bar across the image meaning Prohibited. In the Highway Code of course, they actually mean end of prohibited zone!

restlessshawn · Post by **restlessshawn** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:27 am

It doesn't even exist on a 50k scale OS map. You can see it here though on the east bank of the Yarrow

https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/55. ... 2.91367,18

This being Scotland I didn't think we had such a concept as a footpath.

restlessshawn · Post by **restlessshawn** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:29 am

psling wrote:No idea if allowed or not but always makes me smile when I see those signs with the diagonal bar across the image meaning Prohibited. In the Highway Code of course, they actually mean end of prohibited zone!

That's officially now my defence when they catch me

Moder-dye · Post by **Moder-dye** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:49 am

I'd say no. Unless its a private estate/park that you have to pay to access or there is some by-law in place to prevent other than foot access for some reason to protect the habitat.

Footpaths do exist as a designation of right on a PROW. I.E. a PROW can possibly be a PROW for use on foot only if that's how the rights were acquired, but they're not recorded the same as in England and Wales; footpath, bridleway, by-way etc.

As a wild and spurious guess they might be trying to say that under the code you couldn't use it 'responsibly' other than on foot as horses and bike would cause damage to the habitat?

Without knowing the context/location it sounds pretty dubious to me. Best contact the areas Outdoor Access Officer at the Council, or NP if its in one.

restlessshawn · Post by **restlessshawn** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:02 am

Outdoor Access Officer at the Council

You might as well write to Santa in my experience.

Moder-dye · Post by **Moder-dye** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:15 am

I feel hurt and in need of a panda to cuddle

restlessshawn · Post by **restlessshawn** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:23 am

This is the last thing I reported to them, you can see the council "Pathway" sign behind the "No entry". No response, still like it except they got a nicer sign of a walker with a slash through now I think. I'd cycle through it more often but it's not a great ride

12717401_10208842526200227_8560033805264452036_n by Shawn McFarlane, on Flickr

Moder-dye · Post by **Moder-dye** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:41 am

Having being involved in enforcement action over signage etc I can tell you that its no quick or easy job especially when it ends up between council and landowner solicitors. Its bloody frustrating and not necessarily the OA doing nothing.

Some one I know might have accidentally knocked signs down before...

What I can tell you is that unless you contact the Outdoor Access Officer, Ramblers Association or Scotways it certainly won't be resolved and the reason for it understood or anything sorted out to protect your rights. Of course it could fall down one windy night, but that won't resolve whatever reason its been put there.

Anyway I'm dosed up on drugs and off for 3 months with my newly replaced knee so I'm off for a kip...

Ray Young · Post by **Ray Young** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:09 am

As far as I'm concerned that is not legal. The Scottish access code gives you rights to access most areas be it on foot, bike or horse. If you can legally walk it then you can also legally cycle and ride a horse along it.

Moder-dye · Post by **Moder-dye** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:20 am

Ray Young wrote:As far as I'm concerned that is not legal. The Scottish access code gives you rights to access most areas be it on foot, bike or horse. If you can legally walk it then you can also legally cycle and ride a horse along it.

Yup, I agree it's most probably not, but there can be exceptions. It is not necessarily the case that if you can walk you can cycle or ride a horse, but it is certainly pretty rare.

So, contact the OA to report it and find out. Just as easy as posting the question and photo on here. If it is against the code they can take action, and if there is some reason it's justified you'll find out why.

I'd certainly be interested to know if it has been justified under the Act.

restlessshawn · Post by **restlessshawn** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:24 am

I'll report it but I'm not holding my breath...

Moder-dye · Post by **Moder-dye** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:33 am

freddy_tanner · Post by **freddy_tanner** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:09 pm

Funnily enough I was just about to cycle over Bowhill way. Its been used by cyclists for a long time, so surely it's an established path by now?

I was at a meeting about mountain biking around Galashiels a few months ago and a representative from Bowhill was there. The line he was giving was that a blind eye is turned on cycling on Bowhill estate as far as he was concerned. Seemed to be quite positive about it tbh.

I'll let you know if anyone tries to call me out!

johnb · Post by **johnb** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:44 pm

freddy_tanner wrote:
I was at a meeting about mountain biking around Galashiels a few months ago and a representative from Bowhill was there. The line he was giving was that a blind eye is turned on cycling on Bowhill estate as far as he was concerned. Seemed to be quite positive about it tbh.

Urmm you seem to be saying the Bowhill representative believed you didn't have a right to cycle but was choosing to ignore it. Clearly they have now reversed that decision?
Around here there are a few paths that end in the middle of nowhere some farmers put up signs saying no right of way pass the end of the footpath but don't enforce it. Another I know has no right of way but you can use this route if you want to (to an old grave yard and start of the actual footpath) Also there is a forest with no cycling no horse riding no access signs and .....dogs must be on a lead. A bit of a contradiction to the no access sign. Speaking to the manager he doesn't care where you go, as long as you don't cycle or ride a horse. But doesn't appear to be putting any effort into enforcing it. Although I have never seen another cyclist or horse riders in 10 years of using it.
Maybe this is just about not setting a precedent. Protecting there backs in case of an accident like cyclist running into a walker?

ScotRoutes · Post by **ScotRoutes** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:51 pm

I'd happily ignore that if I was cycling through but if you confirm the Grid Ref I'll pass it on within Scotways.

restlessshawn · Post by **restlessshawn** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:55 pm

ScotRoutes wrote:I'd happily ignore that if I was cycling through but if you confirm the Grid Ref I'll pass it on within Scotways.

NT 429 281 to NT 421 293 running right next to the Yarrow water

I certainly didn't let it ruin my ride

AlasdairMc · Post by **AlasdairMc** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:51 pm

To me, it's all about the wording. They're suggesting suitability for walkers only, which could be a guess based on the quality and sustainability of the surface. There are loads of these signs in the Pentlands, and Rule Number 1 applies. Sometimes I'll ride those trails, but when they're wet and easily ruined I'll avoid them.

With rights come responsibilities, and these days there seems to be many riders shouting about their rights without consideration of their responsibilities (although I don't know this track at all).

ripio · Post by **ripio** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:06 pm

Bowhill seems to be becoming a bit stroppy about access.
A while ago I cycled in the main driveway in order to go to the cafe for lunch, something I've done many times before without any problems.
The guy at the booth who collects the fees from visitors to the house and for parking, wouldn't let me cycle up to the cafe without paying, and said to me that everyone entering the whole estate, not just the house/parking has to pay. I queried him about how that squares up with the Access Code and he claimed they had an exemption, which seemed extremely unlikely to me.
Anyway, I didn't pay and they lost out on my money at the cafe too.

ScotRoutes · Post by **ScotRoutes** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:24 pm

If the grounds were a "pay to visit" attraction prior to the LRA then that information is correct. The LRA didn't make them all free access. A zoo or wildlife park is probably a clearer example but it could hold true there too.

restlessshawn · Post by **restlessshawn** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:18 pm

The paying bit only ever applied to the grounds behind the house. The main driveway becomes the Duchess Drive over the hills. I've ridden past the booth loads of times and never been challenged so will be interesting to see if I do next time. If you came in from the Yarrow valley side you would have passed the house before you ever get to the booth!

fatbikephil · Post by **fatbikephil** » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:19 pm

Sounds like they are trying to pull the old 'charging for entry means SOAC and Access Rights don't apply' caper. Unfortunately (for them) this isn't the case. They can charge for a specific facility (like a safari park for example) but not for general access to an estate. As a landowner they can put up any sign they feel like but this has no bearing on Access rights. Defo report it but I suspect like most council Access Officers they will have a longer list of access problems than they will be able to cope with in any kind of reasonable time frame.

As per Scot Routes - ignore it. If you get stopped explain your exercising your right of responsible access plus also make the point that walkers do far more damage than bikes by dint of their numbers, any argument based on stopping erosion is groundless. Given how active the British Horse Society are in the Borders I'm sure a case is on the way with this shower!

Bloody hell 15 years after Land Reform and you still get this pish....

Ray Young · Post by **Ray Young** » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:16 am

htrider wrote:Sounds like they are trying to pull the old 'charging for entry means SOAC and Access Rights don't apply' caper. Unfortunately (for them) this isn't the case. They can charge for a specific facility (like a safari park for example) but not for general access to an estate. As a landowner they can put up any sign they feel like but this has no bearing on Access rights. Defo report it but I suspect like most council Access Officers they will have a longer list of access problems than they will be able to cope with in any kind of reasonable time frame.

As per Scot Routes - ignore it. If you get stopped explain your exercising your right of responsible access plus also make the point that walkers do far more damage than bikes by dint of their numbers, any argument based on stopping erosion is groundless. Given how active the British Horse Society are in the Borders I'm sure a case is on the way with this shower!

Bloody hell 15 years after Land Reform and you still get this pish....

Well said Phil,

.

restlessshawn · Post by **restlessshawn** » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:26 pm

Well I better eat my words and maybe write to Santa too while I am on a lucky streak

Thank you for your enquiry below. I have spoken with the estate ranger at Bowhill regarding this matter (your enquiry of course is anonymous when I am dealing with the estate) and I have arranged to meet him to look at this matter.

You may not be aware but access rights are not clear cut on the Estate because there is a charge to enter. This matter has been discussed with SBC, as the access authority, and the Estate during the core path plan consultations. A responsible right of access is enjoyed by permission of the laird, however, I will endeavour to return to the soft approach that existed while I was a ranger at Bowhill. There are other issues to consider when using various paths and one is are you taking your access rights responsibly.

I will contact you after my site meeting, thank you

Are they allowed to do this in Scotland?

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