Yet again - Leave No Trace.

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Bearbonesnorm
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Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Many people will already know my feelings about 'leave no trace'. It occasionally (sometimes often) puts me in the firing line for a bit of flak - I get accused of being a miserable b'tard, which if I'm honest, is usually water off a slippery ducks back but does sometimes wear a bit thin. However, I continue to bang on about it, not simply because I am a miserable b'tard but because it's something that I believe could eventually lead to our demise ... yes, I know that all sounds a bit dramatic but if some people don't start to show a little more respect for their surroundings and consideration for others, I'm sure there will be a clamp-down. With that in mind, it does sadden me a little when I come across something like this used to promote an event. I understand that commercial considerations need taking into account. I know that this fire appears to be below the tide-line, so will be washed away but does this simply not reinforce an unhelpful stereotype especially to those who may be new to it?

Image

With the caption - No camp is complete without a fire. And the chance to win with Marin Bikes.

Sorry once again for sounding like 'that miserable fecker' but honestly, I don't do it for fun.
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wriggles
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by wriggles »

Cant comment on you being a miserable b******d :grin: but completely agree about open fires at a bivvy site, really annoys me too, and someone should point this out to the various Al Humphries "micro-adventures" fb pages as it seems to be required to picture a fire in any post, and if you complain you are deemed a kiljoy.
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whitestone
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by whitestone »

With Marin being an American company are these images part of their marketing from over the pond that are being reused here? With some exceptions, having a campfire is seen as normal in the back country in the States.

Maybe a guerrilla style boycott of companies that use open fires in their promotional material? The recent one in the States against NRA supporting companies seems to have had some impact.
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Ray Young
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Ray Young »

I used to think it was ok to have a fire but I have now been educated to a better understanding of the detrimental effects to the environment by doing so. However, and I'm prepared to be educated further still, I regularly use Cramond Island (a tidal island in the Firth of Forth on the edge of Edinburgh) as do lots of other people who regularly have fires and no matter how hard you try to educate these people they will always have fires. As a result of this there are about six permanent fire pits on the island. If I carry in my own fuel, be it fire logs or coal, and tidy up after myself including carrying out other people's trash would this then not be ok? As I say, I'm prepared to be swayed as to why this is not acceptable. As an added note I like to say that if I was in the wilds proper and bivied by a fire pit I would not use it and would attempt to disguise it so others would be less likely to use it in the future.
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Taylor »

I'm guessing thats a UK photo as he's wearing Nevica which is a Sports Direct brand.
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Mart
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Mart »

Not for or against Fires, but agree about leaving no trace

I would like to think of myself as being responsible, and if done correctly then a fire can be a good thing
Leaving no trace with a fire can be done, but in the wrong hands with folks that have little knowledge or desire to do it correctly then its not a good thing to promote.
Promoting it as part of the experience is wrong - for me a fire is the rare exception and not a regular occurrence by any means
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

If I carry in my own fuel, be it fire logs or coal, and tidy up after myself including carrying out other people's trash would this then not be ok?
I wonder whether that's perhaps the crux of the problem Ray. You can only lead by example, so having a fire, showing pictures on fb, advertising or wherever sends the wrong message.
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ootini
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by ootini »

Mart wrote: Leaving no trace with a fire can be done,
Can I ask, how? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just curious as to how to actually do that? Personally I've never felt the need to light a fire when out bikepacking.
On a family campsite with designated firepits etc, I think it's fine, and sometimes fun with the sprog toasting marshmallows etc
Asposium
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Asposium »

I prefer "see no trace" and stealth camping, a subtle difference

I recall the post of someone camping in a wood and the farmer shouting at them to leave.
Must easier to be stealth if only using a headtorch.
That and camping is only trespass and therefore a civil offence, a fire is (technically) criminal damage.
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psling
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by psling »

Bearbonesnorm wrote:
If I carry in my own fuel, be it fire logs or coal, and tidy up after myself including carrying out other people's trash would this then not be ok?
I wonder whether that's perhaps the crux of the problem Ray. You can only lead by example, so having a fire, showing pictures on fb, advertising or wherever sends the wrong message.
^^^ this.

The image usually shown is the 'kool glamour shot'; hip youngsters chilling with a bottle of beer by the open fire. It doesn't come with instructions - carry fuel in, lift a sod, restrict spread, ensure fully extinguished, ensure no foreign objects, bury ashes, replace sod. Don't damage trees cutting wood, don't disturb fauna lifting and moving rocks.
Personally, I'm too lazy to bother with faffing with a fire whilst bivvying and, unfortunately, most people are equally lazy when it comes to clearing up afterwards. And therein lies the problem - the lifestyle image shown doesn't give an honest impression.
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by ton »

people were camping under the stars, and making fires on the beach long before we were riding our bikes.

life is such.......it don't bother me.
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Mike
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Mike »

I wondered having seen that article How long it would take for someone to pick up on it.
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Mart
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Mart »

ootini wrote:
Mart wrote: Leaving no trace with a fire can be done,
Can I ask, how? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just curious as to how to actually do that? Personally I've never felt the need to light a fire when out bikepacking.
On a family campsite with designated firepits etc, I think it's fine, and sometimes fun with the sprog toasting marshmallows etc
Depends on how you do it and where. Leaving no fire ring can be done
e.g. At the beach on holiday we dig a hole for our fire and cover back over with sand when we leave or as Stu points out above making your fire below the tideline
You just have to put a bit of thinking in before hand as to the impact you will be leaving.
Not just a case of lighting a fire anywhere and leaving unsightly scorched grass behind you .... one of my pet hates by the way!
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

people were camping under the stars, and making fires on the beach long before we were riding our bikes.
... aye and drink driving for a long time too before it became (largely) a socially unacceptable thing to do.

Sometimes it is far easier to simply think 'not my circus, not my monkeys' but I feel that in this instance, I am part of the circus, so perhaps have a duty to help keep the monkeys in check :wink:
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by jameso »

Agree with the general sentiments Stuart and yes to keeping check on monkeyism. I threw a toy out of a meeting a while back re something similar and a brand I have links to when an 'influencer' the company gave product to posted daft pics and made comments about camping practices that I wanted removed from an article, for similar reasons. The article stayed as it was and I decided that 'influencers' are often more interested in their own 'brand' than much else -

https://local.theonion.com/i-am-a-brand ... 1819574256
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Dave Barter
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Dave Barter »

I can't understand fires. Whenever I stop I am far to bolloxed to think of anything other than bivy and a nice can of spam. No way can I be arsed to go looking for dry logs and kindling. Everything I've ever cooked on a fire ever has burnt. The fires I have sat round have induced far too much sh1te hipster guitar playing and too many holes in my expensive outdoor hit to be worth it. At Reading festival I saw a good friend nearly die as he stood on a burning cable drum belting out a folk song, not realising that someone had set fire to add to the entertainement.

Fires don't even come close to being as good as they're made out to be. They're like all those twee pictures of cake and coffee on china plates in cycling books which look great on the face of it, but when you get there you simply shove it down your face and demand more. You could not care less about the silver spoon and Wedgewood. It's why our ancestors abandoned them as soon as they worked out that going indoors had the same effect.
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Mbnut
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by Mbnut »

Fires are great... I am happy to have one if the area is suitable ie there is a safe place for said fire and plenty of fuel available that doesn't involve destroying anything.

That said it's pretty rare I can be arsed.... most likely to happen if there is an existing fire spot or on a beach.

I've never posted a picture to Facebook and rarely put anything up on the net.... as with the vast majority of my life experiences I see it as something by me for me at that moment.


This may sound like i'm in disagreement with you Stuart but actually I agree that marketing and the projection of what is 'ok' does need to be kept in check.

As always, people cannot be relied upon to apply a measure of social or environmental responsibility to their actions.

So says a guy that could easily ride locally this weekend but will pump noxious gases into the air by burning fossil fuels whilst simultaneously dumping micro metal pollution onto the earths surface for no other reason than to come and ride in mid Wales...
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benp1
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by benp1 »

Personally I love a fire, but only them in places where fires are allowed (i.e. private land with permission)

For stealth/wild camping I don't like having them as they draw attention and I usually have to then find the wood. For a relaxing/slow trip they're nice, but I then tend to use a wood burning stove like a bushbuddy or an emberlit as it's easier to cook on them and they don't leave a scar

I have a huge dutch oven for cooking on the fire but there's no way that getting carried, it weighs about as much as my bike!
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JackT
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by JackT »

ootini wrote:
Mart wrote: Leaving no trace with a fire can be done,
Can I ask, how? I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just curious as to how to actually do that? Personally I've never felt the need to light a fire when out bikepacking.
On a family campsite with designated firepits etc, I think it's fine, and sometimes fun with the sprog toasting marshmallows etc
here's a video on the leave no trace fire process. it's quite a palaver and I don't imagine very many instagram adventure types are doing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rvN0huXAsU

Another method is to make a mound fire, which requires a fire blanket and even more more digging.
https://www.thehikinglife.com/2013/05/m ... -no-trace/

Near me on the edge of Abergavenny there are a few camp spots are known to local folk where there are fire rings. I don't see the problem with it as it's pretty small scale. On the other hand I wasn't impressed at the Claerwen bothy a few years ago to find a dozen stoners pilling the bothy's entire wood supply (from the estate) into a massive bonfire outside.

Saying that it's not a proper camp without a camp fire is a very irresponsible messaging by Marin.
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by fatbikephil »

I'm with Dave b - I just can't be arsed. I bought one of those wee tin stoves in which you can light a mini fire for cooking. I can't be arsed lighting it and don't trust it enough to carry it instead of my ever reliable BB meths stove so its extra weight in any case. The only thing fires are good for is keeping midges at bay. But so does smoking fags or smidge....
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BigdummySteve
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by BigdummySteve »

Although I don’t do fires there is a way to make a small low impact fire. You dig a small diameter hole with another next to it then link the two so it forms a U shaped hole. Wood goes in one hole and air is drawn through the other. It’s mainly going to be a cooking thing, very efficient apparently. Fill the hole with earth or other ‘organic’ matter and I imagine zero trace.

Personally I take a stove and sometimes an uco candle for the long winter nights, and I’d not let any of my kit within 100yds of a fire.
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ScotRoutes
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by ScotRoutes »

Don't you need to dig a third hole so you've somewhere to put the earth from the other two?
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BigdummySteve
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by BigdummySteve »

I believe the idea is you fill the hole back in after, could of course be wrong...but then you’d need a forth hole to fill in the third one........
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DiscoStu
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by DiscoStu »

There's a time and a place for most things I find. Personally I like a fire. As an infrequent bivvi'er when I do get out its a special occasion, like a camping trip, and a small, controlled and responsible fire is something I look forward to and enjoy - as long as I'm in a suitable spot.

I always ensures my fire leaves either no trace or once so small that Tonto would struggle to spot it.
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Re: Yet again - Leave No Trace.

Post by jameso »

I used to like a small, contained 'LNT' camp fire from time to time. Was a bit of a firebug as a kid. And there's something good about a social around a fire but I read about how the heat kills everything in the soil over a larger area and realised there is no LNT with fires. Not saying they're wholly wrong at all, just that I'd only do it in an area that has facilities for it, or using something to prevent any damage (which means it's really unlikely in most places). All that aside, for a brand to promote themselves via promoting campfires is irresponsible.
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