Training for the CTR

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jameso
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by jameso » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:37 pm

Scud wrote:You should try training for Torino-Nice and living in Norfolk.......
:grin:
I see the mental part more in the location and lack/difficulty of access to medical support than altitude.
Oh yes, that as well, but these days I don't think I'd take any more risks in Snowdonia than I would in Nepal. The thinking speed thing was apparent when coming back to 2000m or so and riding similar levels of technicality as I normally would, tricky-ish but at a level of my ability where there isn't a can-I can't-I high risk of failure, whereas at 3500-4000m there was a mental block at the roll-in that I didn't really understand at the time.

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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by jameso » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:54 pm

jameso wrote:
Scud wrote:You should try training for Torino-Nice and living in Norfolk.......
:grin:
I see the mental part more in the location and lack/difficulty of access to medical support than altitude.
Oh yes, that as well, but these days I don't think I'd take any more risks in Snowdonia than I would in Nepal. The thinking speed thing was apparent when coming back to 2000m or so and riding similar levels of technicality as I normally would, tricky-ish but at a level of my ability where there isn't a can-I can't-I high risk of failure, whereas at 3500-4000m there was a mental block at the roll-in that I didn't really understand at the time.
Try not to work hard; working hard in this phase will lead to very long recovery.
Interesting - based on effort x duration or HR level only? A higher effort up the last bit of a 2400-2700m climb in the Alps 2x a day when on rides there *seems* to help me cope better overall past day 4ish of a ride, compared to taking it easy all the way or pushing it much of the way. Perhaps something to do with the climb high sleep low thing, where I felt the effort gives more trigger to the high aspect. Perhaps makes no difference and I just like the thin air feeling. It's not enough effort to cause fatigue though, plus you shouldn't be doing anything hard/long enough to be fatigue-inducing withing a week of a race.
Last edited by jameso on Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Scud
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by Scud » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:05 pm

I had an accident riding down the "Road of Death" in Bolivia, we'd been hiking in Peru and met some aussie guys that said it was a laugh and that we should ride it, following the crash i had surgery and was kept on the ward there at 3996m above sea-level. When i flew back to UK after a total of 3 weeks above 3000m it was so frustrating as i had metal pins in shoulder and in a sling, but felt absolutely bionic and like i could run a 3 minute mile physically.

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Alpinum
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by Alpinum » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:07 pm

Justchris wrote:I really feel destroyed 3900m plus, the shitty feeling comes at about 3600m.
gosh, did that happen a few times?
I know a woman who simply can't go beyond about 5600 - 5800. She tried a bunch of times on different occasions and it just wouldn't work.
But often it's related to stress from travel or even foreign food. There's a few things to acclimatise to, not just altitude...
Justchris wrote:ZDB you should maybe do a little bit of reading around the subject yourself regarding altitude.
Yeah, best advice :-bd unfortunately many good sources I know are in german. Perhaps they've been translated.
Some here I really like. The last one nice and compact.

Berghold F., Brugger H., Burtscher M., Domej W., Fischer R. et a..: Alpin- und Höhenmedizin | 2015 | Springer | ISBN-10: 3709118328

Berghold F., Pallasmann K., Schaffert W., Schobertsberger W.: Trekking- und Expeditionsmedizin: Praxis der Höhenanpassung - Therapie der Höhenkrankheit | 1991 | Österr. Gesellschaft für Alpin- und Höhenmedizin |

Berghold F., Schaffert W.: Handbuch für Trekking- und Expeditionsmedizin | 2015 | DAV Summit Club | ISBN: 978-3-00-025756-8
whitestone wrote:There was a statistic floating around in the 1980s/90s that most AMS cases worldwide were on Mt Kenya and Kilimanjaro
Exactly. No one can acclimatise that fast (as scheduled on almost all organised trips). Not getting AMS is just pure luck in such cases and has nothing to do with how well one acclimatises. It's more about how the body responds to kick off acclimatisation. I've seen numbers suggesting that people who respond strongly (struggle more) show a better (long term) acclimatisation. Actually quite obvious.

Also people used to acclimatising tend to show better responses to high alt. Experience, patience likely beeing huge factors. Research showed that there are even metabolical changes in our cells so we can still thrive under hypoxia. I wouldn't be surprised to read a paper about how cells can 'remember' how to respond. Just as memory t cells help the body to kick off immune response faster.

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Alpinum
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by Alpinum » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:30 pm

jameso wrote:
I see the mental part more in the location and lack/difficulty of access to medical support than altitude.
Oh yes, that as well, but these days I don't think I'd take any more risks in Snowdonia than I would in Nepal. The thinking speed thing was apparent when coming back to 2000m or so and riding similar levels of technicality as I normally would, tricky-ish but at a level of my ability where there isn't a can-I can't-I high risk of failure, whereas at 3500-4000m there was a mental block at the roll-in that I didn't really understand at the time.
self reflection is an important part in alpinism. It surely helps to dig a bit and talk about it so other can learn from it too.
Thinking about own experiences, I think most of those mental block moments at stuff I'd usually do is down do being to weak, too tired. No matter what elevation I'm at. Clearly, not fully acclimatised, this point will come earlier when at alt.
Perhaps you can refer to this too?
jameso wrote:Interesting - based on effort x duration or HR level only?
HR only. One of Berghold's lessons. He also says that one shouldn't go beyond 50-60 % of his performance level during accl.
This may be more precise and of better use for those accustomed with performance values.

Once your heart rate at rest is back to normal or within <10%, you're done and can go hammering.

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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by jameso » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:21 pm

^ I guess it is tiredness as much as anything. I've had the same thing in (very amateur level) climbing, first time at 3500+ during a trip and ropework isn't as good as it needs to be. Valuable lesson, much of that was noticed early in the day when the real fatigue that'd slow my mind late in a long bike ride wasn't there.
jameso wrote:
Interesting - based on effort x duration or HR level only?
HR only. One of Berghold's lessons. He also says that one shouldn't go beyond 50-60 % of his performance level during accl.
This may be more precise and of better use for those accustomed with performance values.
There go my col finish sprints then. '50-60% of his performance level' - any links for more? I understood that a regular output/HR relationship when at altitude meant you were acclimatised but not sure where the 'effort high up' thing came from. So in fact I might be simply getting myself used to the feeling or effort-output rate, but not doing anything positive for adaptation? (Craig, apologies for the duff tip in that case!)

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:42 pm

what are you lot like, Trail Centres are not 'evil', just places to ride.
You're right Nige, they're not evil. However, I think they might be inhabited by people who believe 'rad', 'shred' and 'gnar' are actually real words. People who insert 'super' before every other word in an effort to express their approval or excitement and people who reply, "can I get"* when asked what they'd like from behind the cafe counter ... perhaps not evil but I feel I've laid out a compelling case for minimal contact :wink:




*No you f*cking can't, is the correct and considered response.
What value a life half lived if the half you lived was the wrong half?

Mbnut
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by Mbnut » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:11 pm

Gnar is not a word?? Both shocked and disappointed.

I have met a few Euro xc and enduro racers that will sleep high. I'm not good on the science as I've never spent long enough high enough to take a thorough interest.

That said I do tend to enter a race for the weekend I return from Alps trips, thinking I'll be in fine form both physically and that my gnar* nob will be cranked up to 11.


*Made up word.

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PaulB2
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by PaulB2 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:34 pm

i’m somewhat surprised that Gnarpoon doesn’t fall foul of the swear filter

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:45 pm

i’m somewhat surprised that Gnarpoon doesn’t fall foul of the swear filter
Anyone using that one, will receive their judgement in Hell Paul.
What value a life half lived if the half you lived was the wrong half?

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Alpinum
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by Alpinum » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:57 pm

jameso wrote: There go my col finish sprints then. '50-60% of his performance level' - any links for more? I understood that a regular output/HR relationship when at altitude meant you were acclimatised but not sure where the 'effort high up' thing came from.
I only found some outtakes of F. Bergholds book - most probably "Handbuch der Trekking- und Expeditionsmedizin"
"Der Leistungsgrad („Tourenzähler“)
darf jedenfalls während der gesamten Akklimatisationsphase
50 % bis 60 % der trainingsbedingten Maximalleistung
nicht überschreiten. Für eine allfällige ergänzende Pulsmessung
gelten im Sinne des „Prinzips der Unterforderung“ folgende
ungefähre Obergrenzen: Etwa 120/Minute für ältere und etwa
140/Minute für jüngere Personen.
Man muss also in der Akklimatisationsphase [...]"

http://www.bergundsteigen.at/file.php/a ... ion%29.pdf

Sorry no other links I know of except for the books I posted before, all from Franz Berthold.
Actually it's the first time I come across "140 bpm for younger persons". :-bd (is 36 y still "younger person"? I'm sure it is :grin: )
But I must say I've not yet come across the (high) "effort high up".

The thing is, in the past 20 year many new studies on this topic have in some cases validated rules of thumb and experience of some, and in other cases not.
jameso wrote:So in fact I might be simply getting myself used to the feeling or effort-output rate, but not doing anything positive for adaptation? (Craig, apologies for the duff tip in that case!)
Perhaps you gave it some more, say 15 % beyond the suggested figures by F. Berghold, but were breathing at 25 %, kicking the oxygen levels up for a moment. On the other hand we should not forget all this talk is about 2500 m and beyond. A French col is at these lower limits by which I don't think one has to play by the rules to go strong. But then I expose myself regularly to Alpine highs. Will likely be different if you live at 300 m asl and go beyond 2500 m 2/year for a few weeks, I guess.

These are the signs for successful acclimatisation:
- heart rate normalised at altitude
- deep breathing under rest and exertion
- continued periodic breathing in the sleep (increased during acclimatisation, but it doesn't stop at extrem altitudes - I personally have never experienced it below 4500 m)
- performance in accordance to training (minus the alt factor)
- more frequent peeing (high alt. diuresis)


I was hoping to find some detailed info in English in Mark Twight's book "Extreme Alpinism" and Clyde Soles "Climbing: Expedition Planning" but they both lack details in acclimatisation. M. Twight states "Rather than recipes for acclimatizing, I offer theory and practical examples." Well, he spends many words without going into any theory at all. Mostly personal accounts and stories from others.
Still, Helpful stuff on 3 pages, yet F. Berghold covers more info on this topic in about half a page.

On here https://www.princeton.edu/~oa/safety/altitude.html I found some English titles:
"Sources:

Mountain Sickness, Peter Hackett, The Mountaineers, Seattle, 1980.
High Altitude Illness, Frank Hubble, Wilderness Medicine Newsletter, March/April 1995.
The Use of Diamox in the Prevention of Acute Mountain Sickness, Frank Hubble, Wilderness Medicine Newsletter, March/April 1995.
The Outward Bound Wilderness First Aid Handbook, J. Isaac and P. Goth, Lyons & Burford, New York, 1991.
Medicine for Mountaineering, Fourth Edition, James Wilkerson, Editor, The Mountaineers, Seattle, 1992.
Gamow Bags - can be rented from Chinook Medical Gear, 34500 Hwy 6, Edwards, Colorado 81632, 970-926-9277. www.chinookmed.com

Additional Reading:

Altitude Illness Prevention & Treatment, Steven Bezruchka, The Mountaineers, Seattle, 1994.
Going Higher, Charles Houston, Little Brown, 1987.
High Altitude Sickness and Wellness, Charles Houston, ICS Books, 1995.
High Altitude Medicine and Physiology, Ward Milledge, West, Chapman and Hall, New York, 1995."

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Alpinum
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by Alpinum » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:13 pm

Mbnut wrote:Gnar is not a word?? Both shocked and disappointed.

I have met a few Euro xc and enduro racers that will sleep high. I'm not good on the science as I've never spent long enough high enough to take a thorough interest.

That said I do tend to enter a race for the weekend I return from Alps trips, thinking I'll be in fine form both physically and that my gnar* nob will be cranked up to 11.


*Made up word.
It actually happens quite fast. A solid - gnar - trip to 4000 m on a weekend, maybe not quite enough drinking, well acclimatised, will give you UCI illegal levels (>50 %) of haematocrit values on a monday morning in the lab :wink:

Many train in the Engadin - a lovely region based around the valley of the Inn - its valley floor starts at about 1000 m and goes up to 1800 and many hills in the area are a bit above 3000 m, some of which easy to ride. Without focussing on going high you often end up riding single tracks for a while without dropping below 2800 m.

And that's why Nino Schurter is so gnarly.

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ZeroDarkBivi
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by ZeroDarkBivi » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:33 pm

Weather crap and wrist still in a brace, so took a look at some academic research today.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4615000836

This 2015 paper concludes that:
- A number of different models for altitude training have been investigated, with LHTL being found to consistently improve hematological parameters and provide meaningful performance improvements in both elite and subelite athletes.
- Exposure to sufficiently high altitude (2000–3000 m) for more than 12 h/day, while training at lower altitudes, for a minimum of 21 days is recommended.
- Individual variation in the response to altitude training is not yet fully understood... athletes should consider that altitude training will be effective for many, but not all participants
- Athletes should follow generally established recommendations, such as easing into training after traveling to higher elevations and making concerted efforts to maintain hydration and nutrition status while initial acclimatization takes place.

As with a lot of real science, when the evidence is examined, it is often less conclusive than we might expect, given the proliferation of 'cutting edge' exercise protocols published in the magazines / websites, every week, promising huge gains. Largely irrelevant, as I am not about to invest in a hypoxic tent - might as well get on the pharma-gear that has a greater probability of physiological improvement; one option may be the wrong side of an arbitrary legal line, but are either ethical, when only open to those people with the biggest budgets? All too serious for this sub-sub-elite amateur.

A number of well-known cycling coaches have concluded that genuine acclimatisation takes 3-4 weeks; Joe Friel's 2c:
"Acclimatization starts as soon as the person arrives at altitude. But the gains are quite small, negligible, for the first several days. Also, the old idea of arriving immediately before a race has been shown to not work. So athletes can arrive whenever they want in the days prior, but should fully expect not to go as fast in a race as they would at sea level. There is no magic bullet for altitude."

Another perspective, from a Training Peaks coach who has raced the Leadville 100 on 12 consecutive occasions:
"Aim for at least 45 hours prior to race start, and a few days more than that might be better for you."

I think with the (relatively) gradual ascent of the East-to-West course, it should be less of a blow than the steep start of the opposite direction.

Already leafing through the CT Databook thinking about a strategy! Sounds a bit daft, but having a plan, and knowing the alternative options for HT550 made a big difference in my confidence to get round efficiently. That said, if anybody has 1st hand knowledge of the event and 'pace notes' for a 6-8 day schedule, that would be very useful. I also need to work out the best option for water purification (I rarely bother in the UK), with lots of options - steripen, filter, chemically treat, etc - what's best for that area?

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whitestone
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by whitestone » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:21 pm

Craig, there's nearly always a CTR thread on the bikepacking.net forums - http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/ultra-racing/, worth asking on there about water purification as there's lots of race veterans posting.

As you've deduced, there's lots of variables regarding acclimatisation, and what variable's most significant for one individual might be negligible for another. I've plenty of historical anecdotal data for myself but there's no way I could extrapolate it to be useful for anyone else. After twelve days mountain biking in Peru at various altitudes between 2000 & 3500 metres asl I was able to run around on a 4400m high pass without undue difficulty, others in the party were still struggling as much as on day one, the worst was the Dutch guy who'd never been above 1000m before! We'd all done the same trails and climbs, slept at the same camps but some just hadn't adapted.

The 5 Ps and all that :wink:
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry

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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by AlanG » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:06 pm

I spent two full weeks in Colorado before the start. There is no shortage fantastic riding. I started in Salida where there is a great trail system just on the edge of town and also a shuttle up to Monarch Pass at 3500m from where you can ride the undulating Monarch Crest Trail followed by the mostly downhill Silver Creek Trail back to town. I also did a hut to hut trip from Durango to Moab at a leisurely pace over 7 days. I felt well prepared but still suffered at altitude during the race.
Based on your HT550 time I think you are about right with your 6-8 day schedule. I finished in 6 days 5 hours in 2012 but back then the route was 50 miles shorter as it used Highway 285 rather than the Tarryall gravel alternate. For pacing check Trackleaders for CTR16 and look at where the 7 day finishers slept each night.
The reliable resupply points are Copper Mountain, Leadville, Buena Vista and Silverton. They should all have something open 24 hrs.
I only used water purification tablets and suffered from dodgy guts for the last two days. Much of the ground water I was drinking had a lot of floaters in! I would definitely take a water filter if I did it again.

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Alpinum
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by Alpinum » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:15 pm

AlanG wrote:Much of the ground water I was drinking had a lot of floaters in! I would definitely take a water filter if I did it again.
Tea bag...

Seriously, get rid of particles so Micropure drops/tablets can work properly. Microbiotic life can be unaffected if protected by dirt. If you get rid of dirt with even a rough filter like tea bags or tissues, the chemistry will do the rest.

Tested it in with many dodgy drinking options.

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ZeroDarkBivi
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by ZeroDarkBivi » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:37 pm

More bollocks on acclimating / acclimatisation:
http://certification.acsm.org/blog/2017 ... ld-the-key

"Exercising in a hot environment could prepare you for exercising in hypoxia (and prepare you to a similar degree as training in hypoxia)."

...It gets better:

"Training in 18°C followed by a 40-minute soak in hot water led to classic markers of heat acclimation (lower exercising core temperature, earlier onset of sweating, etc.)4. The best part, however, was that after 6 days of soaking after each training bout, 5 km run time improved almost 5 percent compared to the group that didn't sit in hot water."

Hmmm. When something sounds too good to be true... Unconvinced of the limited evidence (tiny sample size) and applicability of 5km run / 16km Bike TT test protocols Vs ultra-endurance riding. But what's not to to like about a nice hot bath after a ride (if you have the time)?

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ZeroDarkBivi
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by ZeroDarkBivi » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:01 pm

AlanG wrote:I spent two full weeks in Colorado before the start. There is no shortage fantastic riding. I started in Salida where there is a great trail system just on the edge of town and also a shuttle up to Monarch Pass at 3500m from where you can ride the undulating Monarch Crest Trail followed by the mostly downhill Silver Creek Trail back to town. I also did a hut to hut trip from Durango to Moab at a leisurely pace over 7 days. I felt well prepared but still suffered at altitude during the race.
Based on your HT550 time I think you are about right with your 6-8 day schedule. I finished in 6 days 5 hours in 2012 but back then the route was 50 miles shorter as it used Highway 285 rather than the Tarryall gravel alternate. For pacing check Trackleaders for CTR16 and look at where the 7 day finishers slept each night.
The reliable resupply points are Copper Mountain, Leadville, Buena Vista and Silverton. They should all have something open 24 hrs.
I only used water purification tablets and suffered from dodgy guts for the last two days. Much of the ground water I was drinking had a lot of floaters in! I would definitely take a water filter if I did it again.
The Durango to Moab Hut trip sounds great; I don't think I'll have time for it but any info you have would be most welcome. Probably end up just doing some day rides from Salida / Leadville or Breckenridge - 1 week won't prevent the thin-air suffering, but it might ease the pain a bit.

From what I have gathered online;
- The Stagestop Store & Saloon, at 101 miles in (and open to 10pm), sounds a lot like the race for pizza in Ft Augustus!
- There is a lot of slow miles between Buena Vista and Silverton, with few options for food or resupply, so I'll need extra capacity to carry more food.
- Popular stops on a 7 day schedule:
117 miles - Kenosha Campsite (18 hrs)
179 miles - Valley after Kokomo Pass descent (+21 hrs)
273 miles - Mt Princeton Hot Spring Resort (+20 hrs)
321 mies - Creek between Windy Peak and Sargents Mesa (+18 hrs)
407 miles - Slumgullion Pass (+19 hrs)
459 miles - Silverton (+15 hrs)
Then an 80 mile push to Durango (+20 hrs)

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ZeroDarkBivi
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by ZeroDarkBivi » Fri May 04, 2018 3:08 pm

Finally taken the plunge and booked tickets to Denver for July. However, things have changed a bit since my last trip to the USA, 6 years ago, and apparently I now need to apply for an ETSA from US Customs, even a UK citizen from birth. That means I need a US POC - name and address - which is challenging, as I don't know anybody in Colorado!

Any suggestions on how to get round this?

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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by jam bo » Fri May 04, 2018 3:18 pm

ZeroDarkBivi wrote:Finally taken the plunge and booked tickets to Denver for July. However, things have changed a bit since my last trip to the USA, 6 years ago, and apparently I now need to apply for an ETSA from US Customs, even a UK citizen from birth. That means I need a US POC - name and address - which is challenging, as I don't know anybody in Colorado!

Any suggestions on how to get round this?
pick a hotel, any hotel. they won't check.

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ZeroDarkBivi
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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by ZeroDarkBivi » Fri May 04, 2018 3:34 pm

jam bo wrote:pick a hotel, any hotel. they won't check.
Still need a 'sponsor' (named POC) for the ETSA. "John Doe from 16 Arcacia Avenue, Denver" might not cut the mustard - don't want to get myself on the 'watch list'.

Last time I had a snag in Denver customs, the ex-marine working their just gave me a 'Semper-Fi salute', when we twigged we where both on the same team!

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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by jam bo » Fri May 04, 2018 3:39 pm

pretty sure you can click on UNKNOWN. at least last time I updated mine you could.

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Re: Training for the CTR

Post by middleagedmadness » Fri May 04, 2018 3:58 pm

If you can get to Cwm reahdr it's a 3 mile straight up fire road but then it's 3 mile nose down on some of the nicest single track I've been on , loads of the lads say it's a mini Alps run ,never been to the Alps so couldn't say there's rocks ,drops roots and some really fast blown out bits , also have a look at Hopton it's short but rooty ,and there's a few mildish DH runs there if your after technical down hills, both centers have nothing there but a car park and are normally very quiet ,in my opinion they beat most trail centers there's a feeling of being in a natural environment not a man made track

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