Where are all the women?

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Jurassic pusher
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Jurassic pusher » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:12 am

As Chew says, it's probably just a numbers game. Maybe somewhere there's a post on a horse riding / hockey / netball forum entitled 'where are all the men?'[/quote]

That about horse riding is spot on! My wife does amateur show jumping at riding club level (read , quite low jumps) and men are no where to be seen, it`s like "look there`s a man riding".
I managed to get her to ride to Bearstock last year, with the promise of luxury camping and great company, well she got one out of two anyway!
And it wasn`t luxury camping! :lol:
Come in, she said "I`ll give you shelter from the Storm"
Bob Dylan.

Scott L
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Scott L » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:57 am

I think this is an issue that runs deeper than than just in cycling. The drop out rate from sport of girls in their early teens (start of high school) is two fold that of boys even in the most tentative estimates, some studies claim it's more like 6 fold.

I think a huge amount of it is societal pressure and norms, the pressure girls are put under to act a certain way and look a certain way. It becomes very hard to go against the grain if the norms suggest girls do not do sport or seek adventure.

I am very lucky to ride with a number of girls and women who are both exceptional athletes and who are adventurous. Lee Craigie and the Adventure Syndicate are doing lots on this issue through public speaking and organising rides and seminars. My girlfriend Isla Short who is a professional cross country rider has been involved in the Go Girl scheme up here in Scotland helping at mtb camps for girls.

Things like the Cycle Passion calendar (nudy female cycling athlete calendar) are infuriatingly counter productive. As the message it sends to young girls is that female athletes should he valued for their looks not their sporting prowess. As a cycling coach of young girls I would hate for them to think that has any bearing on them as an athlete.

I think having role models and people to show it is possible is so important and can act to inspire the next generation. We need these role models to show young girls that if they want they can do this stuff too.

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:37 am

Serious question with regard to DoE ... Do people think it's ready for some kind of overhaul? I've done a fair amount of work with DoE over the years but found it increasingly hard to stomach as while it encouraged some, the experience seemed to off just as many. I'm thinking excessive kit lists leading to young girls carrying 60lb packs for 3 days - it'd put me off the outdoors.
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Trail-rat
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Trail-rat » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:00 am

My wife is heavily involved in doe.

I find it staggering the number of barriers put in place . (May just be local council orientated rather than doe mandates)

First example is that they need 1 2day outdoors first aider per group even if they are all walking within sight and voice in the same area.... ie walking together

(May be a local council stipulation rather than doe)

But feed back is that the inner city kids she takes out love it. It's a whole new experience for them.

The 60lb Pack things a misnomer. - that's their own choice largely. Funding is available and good kit is available to hire in many LA - wether the leader takes advantage of either is up to them but the kit the kids are getting now far exceeds what we used to take as kids. Neat little vango 3 man tents that are light and easy to pitch , good quality shoes and raincoats and vango rucksacks that are actually comfy And importantly -not massive so they can't stuff in loads as per the olden days of borrowing Yer dad's old winter rucksack and taking your own body weight in sweets haha

First thing the wife does with them is go through their bags and take unnessaray sub standard out....like the guy last year who turned up with a pineapple.....

Keep to the guidelines and their will be no issues with weight - many of the wife's issues stem from when mum and dad have some outdoors experience and then send Tarquin off with some super lightweight stove/sleeping bag/down jacket /sleeping mat because the standard stuff "is crap" in their opinion But their kids have no idea how to use it. And end up with a wet down and a very cold night - a stove with no gas or idea how to use it or how to inflate the mat etc.

The equipment's largely standardised and robust for the beniifit of the leader

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:05 am

Not had a Pineapple but I have had 12 cans of baked beans and 4 hardback novels :-bd
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Single Speed George
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Single Speed George » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:14 am

Image

eve doing probably some of the hardest bikepacking i have ever done with me ....

only other real bkepackers we saw that trip were a pair of canadien womwn (going quite slow on fat bikes ....) but if you are crazy enough to get a fat bike over the pass (iff they made it) then thats some pretty world class bikepacking ... they just probably dont shout about it



https://outdoor-girl.com/2017/11/02/mee ... ne-sewell/

artical that someone wrote about my mum bikepacking ...


so ye lots of womwen i have come accross bikepack , just not as vocal about it maybe so probably dont see them on tinternet or whatever.

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whitestone
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by whitestone » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:23 am

An interesting point regarding DoE. I think the kit list and resulting weight/bulk is partly down to modern society's aversion to risk, or at least a misunderstanding of it, and why buy expensive super lightweight stuff if its' not going to get used much afterwards other than the occasional festival or sleepover?

Then again incidents/tragedies like those in the Cairngorms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairngorm ... u_Disaster, the 2007 Dartmoor Ten Tors and Lyme Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_Bay_canoeing_tragedy show that some risk assessment is required.

The DoE groups I see out all seem happy enough (high proportion of girls) but I do wonder if wearing full waterproofs all the time is really necessary.
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Dave Barter
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Dave Barter » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:49 am

My daughter did DofE bronze, the kit list was ridiculous and we struggled to get her pack weight down even using all of my lightweight kit.

It needs more emphasis on group decisions when packing and sharing and also maybe resupply/gathering on the way.

That aside they loved it and I think it should be mandatory like national service ;-)
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benp1
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by benp1 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:13 pm

I used to help with the scouts, they were doing bronze DoE. The kit list was ridiculous, you just don't need all that stuff

I was the only leader to actually carry all my own kit and do the walk with them, I managed for three reasons
- experience
- better kit - lighter and more technical, but this generally comes as a cost
- kit list - not having to follow all the ridiculous guidelines

The second one is the big one though. Parents don't want to invest in expensive stuff that they kids will only use a couple of times and might also get wrecked. It's not just the child you're buying for though, it's the children around them. They might know how to look after a nice down bag, but if another kid spills their drink on it it's still knackered

The stuff they packed was ridiculous though, spare shoes, full size toiletries, books, games etc.

They then pack it by throwing it all in randomly, and not wearing their rucksacks properly

We had a few lessons shared on the trips I did...!

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Trail-rat
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Trail-rat » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:17 pm

so if we disregard all the items on the optional list

as a kid whos never been in the out doors and you want them to have a good experiance without being a cold wet shivvering mess by sunday night ....

which items on the kit list dont you take ?

i see flip flops/trainers/sandals - more specifically the trainers , flipflops/sandals for the space and weight can be a godsend if you have been trudging through wet all day

Frankly i/the wife could do the same things with a 20l day sack(because we know the terrain , can assess the risk for our selves and dont mind type 2 fun) but thats not the aim of the game here. The aim is to be equiped for the environment having never seen it before and enjoy it.

Do not under estimate the restoritive power of a fresh warm fleece and a cup of hot chocolate for a child who's had enough.

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whitestone
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by whitestone » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:32 pm

Tea towels and scourers? In fact quite a bit of the cooking kit is a bit OTT - chopping board?

To be fair the list I'm looking at on the official DoE site isn't that bad and quite a few are season/locale specific. There's a few things like the first aid kit that you can see parents buying "the big one" because it's "better" and also a few things that with experience you realise you can use something else for - most Swiss army knives have an inbuilt tin opener for example but the chances are that they'll pack something like this

Image

Though one of these is fine:

Image

Towel: a micro fibre one rather than Egyptian Cotton maybe?
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:48 pm

Tin opener ... why are they carrying tins?
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whitestone
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by whitestone » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:50 pm

Bearbonesnorm wrote:Tin opener ... why are they carrying tins?
It's the "Pre-packed expedition food" :roll:
Better weight than wisdom, a traveller cannot carry

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Alpinum
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Alpinum » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:12 pm

Bearbonesnorm wrote:Tin opener ... why are they carrying tins?
whitestone wrote:
Bearbonesnorm wrote:Tin opener ... why are they carrying tins?
It's the "Pre-packed expedition food" :roll:
https://youtu.be/fNGtJ5a42Pk
:lol:

They re carrying it, because some food comes in tins I guess.

Sorry... please carry on

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Trail-rat
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Trail-rat » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:29 pm

i think we are looking at different lists .

mines the may 2016 DOE list.

its a suggestion rather than instructional .

i think there are a few issues at play - poor education from the leaders as to requrements , Vigerous upselling by keen shop assistants and lack of knowledge/ignorance from parents.

I think its safe to say you ignore the optional list for a start - where both the tin opener and chopping board live

We take our ability to have nice kit for granted but when your dealing with inner city kids who probably dont even have a pair of walking boots , light weight gear is an unrealistic ask.

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htrider
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by htrider » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:04 pm

A mate leads DoE groups and typically finds the girl groups less soft than the male groups.
My pal Iona prefers wild camping to bothies as if you choose your spot you never meet anyone whereas all sorts of dodgy characters hang out at bothies :???:
Maybe its genetic - back in cavemen times, men ran around chasing after saber tooth tigers and what not whilst women tended the kids and the cave??

Although if you look elsewhere in the animal kingdom, women really do do all the work, including hunting (eg lions and other big cats)

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psling
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by psling » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:38 pm

I was the only leader to actually carry all my own kit and do the walk with them...
Bit surprised by this. I was always under the impression that they shouldn't be accompanied or aided.

'We' look at the kit they carry from the perspective of an adult who enjoys getting out into the great outdoors with the experience of choosing our own kit; the ideology of the DoE is to encourage kids to learn and enjoy and they don't usually have the luxury of our knowledge and neither do those around them. It's a stepping stone and whilst there is always room to improve the experience of the DoE we shouldn't take away that basic starting-with-nothing opportunity for those with nothing.

With regards to women bikepacking - in my area there is a very large and strong contingent of female MTBers and a lot of those I know enjoy multi-day off-road trips but prefer the 'venue to venue' aspect of an organised trip with basic bed and food provided and, importantly, wash and toilet facilities (some have even enjoyed Stu's hospitality and they still weren't put off :cool: ). Whilst a lot are prepared to squat behind a bush very few are happy to do what bears do in the woods!
We go out into the hills to lose ourselves, not to get lost. You are only lost if you need to be somewhere else and if you really need to be somewhere else then you're probably in the wrong place to begin with.

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JohnClimber
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by JohnClimber » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:46 pm

On a personal note.
I've car camped with the wife several times around 20 years ago...... (OMG :oops: )
Since then I got into cycling, then bivi'ing but the wife although riding occasionally would never camp out again, like Stuart says "f*ck that, I'm not sleeping outside with the slugs and pooing in a field" She likes here home comforts far too much.

I've done BaM since spring last year and even in great weather she was never tempted on joining me.
I've got 1 more to do to complete 2017, then the Winter event and I can retire from the "pressures" of BaM and change my/our plan.

We've hired several campervans and camped wild (in the vans) may times as we hate camp sites....... apart from the showers and waste outlets ;-)

Now that Mr Tax Man has given me a nice refund rather than blowing it on the mortgage we bought Beethoven.

Image
So if you can't beat them join them, the wife has excepted my challenge of WCVaM for 2018.
Wild CamperVan a Month 2018. Like BaM we can't use camp sites so have to wild camp, but this has got a full sized memory foam mattress, a sofa, heating, lighting, locks, burners, a fridge and most importantly a toilet.
So if you can't beat them join them.

Plus I can use it for cycling events :wink:

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Trail-rat
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by Trail-rat » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:17 pm

nice van. we have an old iveco daily with a similar set up. great for getting out there and waking up at the trailhead ready for an early start :d

mat_swan
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by mat_swan » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:25 pm

My OH does 'fun' mountain biking in almost all conditions but is not keen on death marches or type 2 fun. We met MTBing.

We do some lightweight touring, bikepacking style bags rather than panniers, and the odd bivvi or bothy in nicer conditions, but she's just not got much interest in going out in the rain for the sake of it. I don't know if this is typical.

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ootini
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Re: Where are all the women?

Post by ootini » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:37 pm

mat_swan wrote:
We do some lightweight touring, bikepacking style bags rather than panniers, and the odd bivvi or bothy in nicer conditions, but she's just not got much interest in going out in the rain for the sake of it. I don't know if this is typical.
I think it is. My OH also enjoys fair weather bikepacking / touring but nothing too far in to the type 2 spectrum.

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