The kit's got lighter ... but are we still touring?

[jameso]

I know this point's been made before, references to books about bikepacking from the 70s onwards etc. This seat pack is interesting though, included in a magazine clip from Rivendell's newsletter -

[Moder-dye]

Cliffhanger...

What was Mike bartering with the shop owner for?! I need to know!

Its funny my wife and I did a little tour recently on Orkney and she managed with two lightly packed rear panniers. She did have a small frame bag though that she joked was just the right size for her hair straighteners She didn't take straighteners.

After now after her first tour, 4 nights camping, she's constantly criticising the amount she's see on tourers up here. It is ridiculous at times just lime Mikes set up. I had my usual bikepacking set up but with a 2kg/3 man tent in the bars.

[Bearbonesnorm]

You had to do this didn't you?

Firstly, I firmly believe that there's a difference between the two 'disciplines' but it's not governed by the type of luggage you choose but by mindset and attitude. That then dicates what you carry which in turn largely infuences how you carry it.

Absolutely no reason why you can't bikepack with panniers but most probably won't - that shouldn't be a fashion based decision but one of practicality. Adding a metal support (which might be called a rack by some) to a saddlebag isn't a defining act, it's just a design feature that some will appreciate and others won't.

I've spent quite a lot of time in a large local forest of late. Sustrans 8 runs straight through it and on a few occasions I've stopped to chat to people pedalling their way to the coast. The vast majority of them are riding (but appear to be mainly pushing) bikes fitted with 4 panniers as a minimum. Some are staying in B&B, some are staying on campsites but the thing they all seem to have in common is - they all look utterly bolloxed. That weariness isn't simply a by-product of a heavy physical load but a mental one too ... deadlines, schedules, times and places are putting pressure on them, the additional burden of 4 + panniers is simply the straw that broke the Dawes back.

Maybe you're born a bikepacker or a tourer and which camp you choose is predestined by your character, star sign or something? Some people will choose to see how little they can carry, others will see how much.

Sorry for the disjointed randomness.

[GregMay]

.. is simply the straw that broke the Dawes back.

Well played sir.

[restlessshawn]

I tend to avoid the word 'touring' just because I don't want people to think I'm off with 4 panniers and the kitchen sink. It just sounds a bit Victorian going off for a 'tour'. Normally I'll just say I'm off camping or cycling to a bothy. Outside of a niche of cyclists the term bikepacking really has no meaning anyway.

Actually I don't even like to take lots of stuff when I go on a normal holiday I just feel cluttered by it, so yeah maybe it's all in your head. I'm off Vanpacking next month which is totally different from Motorhoming...

[psling]

Sustrans 8 runs straight through it ...
... they all look utterly bolloxed. That weariness isn't simply a by-product of a heavy physical load but a mental one too ...

Never mind the nomenclature or style of luggage, that's just anyone following a Sustran's route through Wales!

[Single Speed George]

it is probably all touring in the end, just with different amounts ok kit and time frames terrain . sometimes i bikepack with a tent , and cooker etc and feel like thats kinda touring.....

[ScotRoutes]

Yes

[wriggles]

Carradice SQR has been around a while though hasnt it so the idea of seat mounted pack fitted longways is nothing new?

I never really consider if i am bike packing or touring, i have both sorts of luggage. I just take the set up that suits the ride im going to do.

The whole principle of less is more works whichever luggage used, but beyond that it becomes a bit like the wheel size debate, endlessly going round round and round pointlessly

[Bearbonesnorm]

Carradice SQR has been around a while though hasnt it so the idea of seat mounted pack fitted longways is nothing new?

Indeed ... since the late 1800's.

Here's some samples of a kit list from 1898 ... tell me this lad wasn't bikepacking

A 2lb (907g) tent, a down quilt weighing 1lb 10oz (737g) and even an air pillow 3oz (85g) are all listed. The combined weight for the entire list tipped the scales at less than 10lb.

[wriggles]

My understanding is that Carradice predates the modern bicycle and that in the 1880s the Safety Bicycle was invented purely to carry a waxed cotton and leather luggage "system"

Possibly......

[Single Speed George]

[ZeroDarkBivi]

it is probably all touring in the end, just with different amounts ok kit and time frames terrain . sometimes i bikepack with a tent , and cooker etc and feel like thats kinda touring.....

Agreed. Unless you are racing.

I think the recent popularity of bikepacking racing has shaped how touring can be done differently, using a minimalist approach to go further, etc. A bit like Alpinism, bikepacking is a style of touring, and therefore more of an attitude, as Stu commented, rather than kit specific.

Marketers will always latch onto new terminology to sell us something that sounds much sexier than it is, or 'on trend'; 'Adventure Bike' Vs dropped bar hybrid, etc.

As an old fart, I like language to be precise, but that's probably a dieing concept and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it - who cares what people call it - is there any intellectual property concerns with the word bikepacking? Perhaps Specialized have tried to trademark it...

[whitestone]

There was a "tourer" riding past our place last night as we headed home. We both commented that he'd enough panniers and bags on the bike to require a Harley-Davidson to carry it!

I think racing/ITTs/pacier riding has helped focus people's minds on just what they need to take on a ride. As Craig says, Alpinism encourages you to think about what you need rather than what you want, it becomes a judgement call on what to take. You still get people questioning why you take such a small amount of equipment for a big climb because they take a shop's worth of kit on a Diff at Stanage It does take a bit of explaining!

[metalheart]

because they take a shop's worth of kit on a Diff

I didn't get called Big Wall Neill for nuthin ye know. And there's a skill in making an easy climb look that hard.....

It's only names, I'm off to the outer Hebrides next month. I'll be on the bikepacker with my bikepacking gear. But I'll also be touring in reality (even if I'm coming back home the off-road way....).

[Jurassic pusher]

Sustrans 8 runs straight through it ...
... they all look utterly bolloxed. That weariness isn't simply a by-product of a heavy physical load but a mental one too ...

Never mind the nomenclature or style of luggage, that's just anyone following a Sustran's route through Wales!

Excuse the question, I`m from Dorset, what does nomenclature mean when it`s at home?

[ianfitz]

Sustrans 8 runs straight through it ...
... they all look utterly bolloxed. That weariness isn't simply a by-product of a heavy physical load but a mental one too ...

Never mind the nomenclature or style of luggage, that's just anyone following a Sustran's route through Wales!

Excuse the question, I`m from Dorset, what does nomenclature mean when it`s at home?

Really it just means words but more specifically...

the systems we use to invent/choose/derive words for different types things that are related/similar but need to be differentiated from each other.

[psling]

Sustrans 8 runs straight through it ...
... they all look utterly bolloxed. That weariness isn't simply a by-product of a heavy physical load but a mental one too ...

Never mind the nomenclature or style of luggage, that's just anyone following a Sustran's route through Wales!

Excuse the question, I`m from Dorset, what does nomenclature mean when it`s at home?

Really it just means words but more specifically...

the systems we use to invent/choose/derive words for different types things that are related/similar but need to be differentiated from each other.

Yeah, in that context I was meaning "never mind the terminology (words) used to categorise the style or type of journey or riding or style of luggage". The point I was really making though was that Sustrans appear to have found every never-ending steep hill in Wales and run a route along them!

[Jurassic pusher]

Thanks, Ian

[ianfitz]

There's many types of words I've used to describe sustrans routes, mostly impolite

They do seem to like to throw in a random steep forest track/gravel into things which are advertised as family road/traffic free routes

[summittoppler]

I'm on the side of Bikepacking/Touring is the same thing. The reason being is as we all know is, its riding yer bike with your kit on the bike. Its just that nowadays the 'marketing' word is bikepacking. Time has evolved, kit HAS got lighter and smaller which means the days of the panniers are now being left in the shed for most folk (me included).
So IMO, yes its touring with a modern name....
...and you can't beat 4x4 1x11 touring either *I think that'll catch on*

[Alpinum]

I'd still be up there if it was for panniers

It's simply not possible to ride the stuff I like to challenge myself on with panniers.

Come to think of it, I rarely use the term bikepacking, especially to folks I meet. I just call it multi day trip.

No matter what the term, to me it's about how I can carry the gear and have fun, get nothing in my way and be efficient.
If I was road touring I'd probably go with two small panniers and maybe a framebag as I think packing is easier than with bar and saddle bag. I'd still call what I'm doing the way I do when offroad riding. Just yesterday people said it looks as if I was high up in the mountains by looking at my bike. Sometimes it obvious, no more explanation needed.

Touring, on or offroad, bikepacking, panniers, bike bags or rucksack, we all share at least two things; the journey and the bicycle.

[psling]

Ten or more years ago I bought what was in the manufacturer's listing a "cross bike" but what I referred to (and still do) as my "light tourer". I also have a couple of mountain bikes that I have bought modern bike-packing style luggage for and these are my "bike-packing" bikes.
That's got me thinking further about names, categories, whatever...

There are rough stuff riders who take out minimal kit if they're overnighting, bike hobos if you wish. Then there are audaxers, randonneurs, breveteers(?) who'll carry minimal church porch/bus shelter comforts, ITTers who may carry slightly less minimal comforts for short rests in the wilds. Light tourers, credit card tourers, tourers; maybe each accredited a certain number or size of pannier dependent on category. Then there are bike-packers.
All may tend to be identified these days by the way kit is carried or the event entered.
The mindset of the rider is where it can get more confusing though. Bikepacking might be considered to be wandering and exploring overland, mostly off-road and with only loosely made plans but that could also be categorized as a form of touring, or is touring when you have an itinerary, a planned series of destinations? But, if you're riding an ITT is that bikepacking? You have an itinerary and planned destinations but it's not touring so maybe we're back to the style of luggage rather than the mindset.
One word I've used above a lot is minimal so maybe that's the defining factor; the more kit you carry the less of a bikepacker you are and the more of a tourer you become. Can you bikepack with a trailer? Oh dear...

Sorry, I'm rambling, must get on with some work.

[jameso]

You had to do this didn't you?

Sorry : ) wasn't really intended as a sematic debate but the title was asking that Q (interesting read produced tho). Thought the bag was interesting and the article seemed to be heading for a discussion about lightweight touring. But since we're here .. : ) Couldn't agree more with what you say about the mindset aspect. Weighed down by panniers and schedules, that's a good way to put it. I think 'bikepackers' can be similar, less often, but perhaps weighed down by ideas of pace, performance etc, the racing hangover. At least, I've had that in mind too often and enjoyed riding more once I got over it.

To me / fwiw (little), touring<>bikepacking, same thing or at least on the same scale with a lot of cross-over and blurred edges. My first multi-day trips in 2005-2007 were on road with minimalist kit to keep weight and 'needs' down, I stayed in B+Bs that I found along the way, nothing pre-booked. I woke up each morning with no idea where I'd end the day and looked at a map over breakfast. I was touring and exploring with little baggage, 'unweighted'. I'd read blogs about tourers doing similar things in a similar way. If I'd read more I'd have found references to bikepacking and the early days of the GDR. I thought of it as a bike trip, a tour. It's all just tags we might use to help explain where on that scale we see ourselves but I suppose fundamentaly what I do in this area has always been an expression of an attitude, simple curiosity for routes, self-sufficiency, a bit of stubbornness to do it my own way and lack of care for routine or plans. The name is chosen to fit.

I also call it touring when talking to people who don't ride / don't ride much. They know what it means. Neighbours may see the bike and ask if that's all I'm taking etc, but they understand touring or bike-camping. Maybe I like the idea of the term 'touring' being reclaimed or rebranded as less of the older CTC image* and something that includes a wider group and a wider set of attitudes now.

"Hi everyone. My name is James and I'm a bike tourer, I'm ok with this."

Touring, on or offroad, bikepacking, panniers, bike bags or rucksack, we all share at least two things; the journey and the bicycle.

Hear hear.

*edit to add .. I like the old CTC image actually. Old-school bikes or a lack of GAS about kit and wanting stuff to just last, damnit : )

[jameso]

That's got me thinking further about names, categories, whatever...

We need a Venn diagram : )

A bit like Alpinism,

Exactly. The first bike trips I did came about at the same time as a climbing aspiration (I found I was a better cyclist than a climber!) and Alpinism by bike was what I thought of my first bike trips - lots of climbing, less kit, free agenda based on weather, wanting to see the high Alps. At the time I thought mountain bivi gear was too heavy to strap to a bike though and that'd make me a laden-down tourer?

http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.co.uk/ - I remember reading this and taking a lot of influence from it for my second trip. 17lb road bike and 8-9lbs in a rucsac, open agenda + BnBs in the Alps. Sort of a bad idea in the end (the rucsac) but a good experiment in lightweight touring. Now I bivi-bike with that weight of gear.