Bar Harness - Why...?

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Pyro
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Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Pyro »

That's not a 'why?' In general, I understand what they're for, but a why in specific.

Why, in the general scheme of all things bar-harness-y, is the general scheme a full-plate wrapping the bag? A la Wildcat, Revelate, Alpkit, all the designs follow a broadly similar theme, a wide semi-rigid plate with straps. I'm just wondering why, as it seems to me the plate element adds weight in ways that could be avoided.

I can see the need for some lateral rigidity, but what does the plate provide that, say, a rigid horizontal bar/stay wouldn't?

I've a design in mind that doesn't use a plate, but thought it was a good idea to ask on here anyway. Users/MYOG designers/Ian - over to you!
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Chew
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Re: Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Chew »

Mainly rigidity and extra surface area to help 'grip' the dry bag to stop it moving.

I cant imagine theres that much extra weight in this approach vs any other ~200g?
If all of the main producers have independently engineered the same solution to the same issue it must be for good reason.
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Re: Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Pyro »

Chew wrote:If all of the main producers have independently engineered the same solution to the same issue it must be for good reason.
It's possible Chew, but as Gen. Paton put it "If everyone's thinking the same thing, someone isn't thinking..." ;)

And yes, the saving might be minimal, but in our 'incremental gains' weight-weenie leisure pursuit, does the advantage of the plate outweigh the weight penalty?
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Re: Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Ben98 »

but in our 'incremental gains' weight-weenie leisure pursuit, does the advantage of the plate outweigh the weight penalty?
We shall see what you come up with :D
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Pyro
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Re: Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Pyro »

I've nothing to gain, Ben. The ~200g saving will have little-to-no benefit to a 15 stone fat knacker like me! :lol:
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Gari
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Re: Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Gari »

I have one of Erics Slings, which I bought thinking it was the same as the old harness I had( picture wasn't great), Basically it is just a fabric harness with no stiffeners, and that is enough of a pain to keep in place. I use the bars for camp stuff such as tent/bag/shelter so there is little real structure to the dry bag, and it constantly compresses and moves, meaning I am constantly re-tightening it. Sounds trivial but after a dozen times a day, for several days it does become a little "tiring" :sad:
It tends to move around most when going down, or on a rough trail, preferably both....Give me the 200gms any day.
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Nick
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Re: Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Nick »

I managed my first year of bivvying with and 18 litre dry bag lashed to the bars with webbing straps, the other three fella's I ride with have managed 4 WRTs like this.

My 456 frame still bears the scars (rubbed away the head tube sticker),.a it is bit of a pain to get lashed on nice and tight so it was stable, but it worked fine. I think the Wildcat and similar style harnesses are worth the 100g or so weight penalty as they keep the bag away from the frame and make it easier and quicker to get your bag on the bar.

If you could design something that was quick to load up (once installed on bike), weighed less than anything else and was as stable as a bag lashed to bars then you might have a winner!
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Pyro
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Re: Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Pyro »

Gari, do you find the straps actually loosen or do they 'creep' inwards (towards the centre)? I can see the benefit of the plate for holding the straps in position horizontally,
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Ian
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Re: Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Ian »

Pyro wrote:as Gen. Paton put it "If everyone's thinking the same thing, someone isn't thinking..." ;)

And yes, the saving might be minimal, but in our 'incremental gains' weight-weenie leisure pursuit, does the advantage of the plate outweigh the weight penalty?
That's a good quote, which is precisely why the Wildcat strap system for both the Lion and the Tiger came into being :wink:

Anyway, to address the original question: I think if you're making your own gear, then you have a bit more freedom. For a "commercial" product you have to allow both for a wider variation of use, i.e. you don't know how people are going to pack their gear and how much they have, and that there is variation in the skill of the user to understand the scope and function of a product and apply into their intended use. As you strip away elements to a product I think you narrow the range of use and increase the likelihood of somone not getting on with it because they don't understand it or they can't get it to work with their kit.

I agree that the pad isn't essential, and the very first concept for the Mtn Lion comprised of two straps only. However, a pad provides several functions:
  • control the position and limit sideways movement in the straps
  • protection for the dry bag against the bike/ cables
  • is more tolerant of uneven/ badly stuffed contents
  • helps maintain even tension between the straps and resists movement in itself (cf Gari's comments on the Revelate Sling)
  • everything stays in place on the bike when the dry bag is removed
Overall, the Mtn Lion doesn't weigh all that much. < 200g. Lighter than anything else on the market that offers the same stability. I have made versions with smaller pads down to a weight of 85g, but in each case the pad does serve some purpose as described above.
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Pyro
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Re: Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Pyro »

Cheers Ian, that was precisely the kind of response I was after!

Yes, I'm designing this in the aspect of it being my own gear rather than a commercial product (I have four jobs, I don't need a fifth!) but it'll be interesting to see how it works/where it goes. The variation in scope/use/user skill is an element I hadn't really thought of, but there's another favourite adage of mine that says "Everything is idiotproof until they give you a better idiot"

Cable routing and protection is a fair point and yes, it's something that crops up regularly in these conversations. That's going to be the major issue, but again, we'll see how it goes. I've 3 different bike setups of my own I can test it on (when I actually get around to building it!) so there's an element of variation. I can't say how much it'll weigh, and the saving isn't my primary aim really, as I say, I'm 15 stone, 100-200g isn't going to help much! The idea is one of multi-functionality as much as anything else. Whether it works at all remains to be seen.

Strangely enough, part of the inspiration for the design came from the Tiger pack, though I don't own one (yet) I think it's a great piece of thinking - remove an element of double redundancy by eliminating the extra fabric when people will almost certainly be carrying a drybag in it anyway.
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Gari
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Re: Bar Harness - Why...?

Post by Gari »

I found that the contents would shift/compress etc when moving so that over time the straps would shift( to the loosest point for example) or become loose, the load would then start shifting and so on until the thing would just bob about and need to be tightened. Pretty much reiterating Ian's point about uneven stuffed loads etc. The issue of protection shouldn't be overlooked either, in less than one summer season of riding I rubbed the head badge completely off my Ogre :shock:
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