Comparison....

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frogatthefarriers
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Comparison....

Post by frogatthefarriers » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:11 pm

Christmas prezzy
Image
The stove, not the folding cup of water..

Home made cat-can meths stove that I've been using for the last 6 months or so:-
Image

I ran a comparison. Gas stove, 3 minutes to boil the cup of water. MYOG meths stove, 3 minutes 20 seconds for the same amount of water. No need to carry that gas canister to save 20 seconds, I reckon. Especially since the meths stove fits inside my pot (with tea bags, powdered milk, straws of washing-up liquid, a lighter, windshield and a pan scrubber) but the gas stove doesn't.
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ScotRoutes
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Re: Comparison....

Post by ScotRoutes » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:38 pm

Hint: smaller gas canisters are available....

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RIP
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Re: Comparison....

Post by RIP » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:42 pm

Always fun to carry out little experiments like that :smile:. Did a bit of WE packing earlier (I'm keen) and my complete breakfast kitchen now weighs just over 200g - Stu Hyperstove (TM), windshield, pad, eating pot, 18ml ethanol, spoon, matches, porage, ovaltine, all fitting RussianDoll-style into 400ml Ti mug. 330ml cafe/pub milk picked up during previous day. And of course the stove is totally silent. Mine's slower than gas, so along with the silence it makes for a very relaxed and contemplative breakfast.

R
Last edited by RIP on Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There comes a time in your life Ponsonby, when you think: 'My God, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Comparison....

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:46 pm

Aye and that's why I can never consider a gas stove to be truly lightweight. Faff free, fast and easy to use - certainly but a canister rules it out from the lightweight running even if the actual stove weighs very little.

Interestingly (perhaps) I was informed today by a competitor in an ultrarunning event that even though a stove isn't mandatory, the organisers wouldn't allow him to take an 8g stove as it was too light. The irony wasn't lost on me :roll:
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In Reverse
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Re: Comparison....

Post by In Reverse » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:48 pm

Just weighed one of my small canisters and it's 141g. Probably just over half the gas left in it.

150ml of meths is 119g if my maths is right, plus the weight of the bottle.

Difference is negligible n'est ce pas?

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RIP
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Re: Comparison....

Post by RIP » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:50 pm

'too light' :???: :smile:. I also only take 3 matches and a tiny piece of strike board. If i can't get going with 3 (or even 1 really) then I don't deserve breakfast :wink:. The only thing I could really do with (apart from, obviously, a full sized down pillow that only weighs 40g) is a complex but foldable system of tiny mirrors that can be installed around/under the windshield so that I know the stove hasn't gone out without lifting the pot up.... I know I could just hold my hand over it but toasted fingers don't feature on my brekkie menu.
Last edited by RIP on Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"There comes a time in your life Ponsonby, when you think: 'My God, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP

"It is in the petty details, not in the great results, that the interest of existence lies" - JKJ

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RIP
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Re: Comparison....

Post by RIP » Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:58 pm

re '150ml' - Yeah but for one breakfast (eg BaM) can you buy a tiny gas canister with only a tiny one-breakfast amount of gas in it? :wink: My breakfast fuel including bottle weighs 22g (and the stove only weighs 18g but could be just 8g - a Pocket Rocket is 77g or more which isn't included on your side of the equation). And - you're soon stuck with an empty single-use canister (maybe they should have the equivalent of a plastic-bag charge on them :wink:). AND - the problem of never having a canister with the correct amount for the trip which means often taking a spare canister. Not worked it out but even from purely the weight pov you're looking at 3 days or more for the balance to tip towards gas? 18ml of ethanol boils me 400ml water. And that's never mind the big-kid excitement and pleasure I still get from firing up a Stu Stove :smile:.

Awaits BrownDog and his amazing collection of stoves to drop by.....

(sorry I/R, this has turned into Stove Wars now :lol:)
Last edited by RIP on Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"There comes a time in your life Ponsonby, when you think: 'My God, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP

"It is in the petty details, not in the great results, that the interest of existence lies" - JKJ

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Comparison....

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:15 pm

Just weighed one of my small canisters and it's 141g.
Yeah but it probably weighs nearly 100g empty. If I'm not anywhere I can easily dispose of it then I'm carrying that about but more importantly, I'm having to find somewhere for it to live.
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In Reverse
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Re: Comparison....

Post by In Reverse » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:37 pm

I've never completey empited a canister on a trip. Probably never will come to think of it as I don't bother with a stove any more. :lol:

As you were. :-bd
Bearbonesnorm wrote:more importantly, I'm having to find somewhere for it to live.
Fits perfecty inside the Evernew 400ml Ti pot/mug tbf.

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RIP
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Re: Comparison....

Post by RIP » Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:45 pm

Scaredy cat, you've run away now! Where's the fun in that battle!? :lol:.

Of course you're right - the lightest stove is the one left at home in the cupboard :smile:. A tenner for a greasy-spoon fry-up is probably only about 2g :wink:.
"There comes a time in your life Ponsonby, when you think: 'My God, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP

"It is in the petty details, not in the great results, that the interest of existence lies" - JKJ

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whitestone
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Re: Comparison....

Post by whitestone » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:13 pm

Unless you are racing then the extra 20 (or thirty, forty, whatever) seconds are immaterial when compared to the time spent at a bivy or in a bothy especially at this time of year.

I'm sure I've seen on one of the American backpacking/hiking forums or blogs a somewhat OCD dissection of fuel use and at what point the weight of fuel for a meths stove becomes greater than that for other fuels. (Meths is less energy dense than propane/butane gas or petrol) For trips of a few days it's definitely the winner.
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TheBrownDog
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Re: Comparison....

Post by TheBrownDog » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:39 am

RIP wrote:Awaits BrownDog and his amazing collection of stoves to drop by.....
Here ya go Reg, a cross section of my meths burner collection, from retro to a more modern take, from MYOG to buy-it-from-Stu. I have another 15-20 of these things in various boxes around the house.

Image

The little one on the right is my current go-to, as you can put enough meths in to boil 700ml of water three times (no, not the same 700ml ...) and snuff the flame when it's done. It's part of a system from StorminStoveSystems which is essentially a custom two-piece Caldera cone that rolls up and fits into the pot with a cup, the stove, lighter, folding spork and a small piece of tea towel. It does 700ml in around 7 minutes depending on the temperature. It's a pot stand and windshield all in one and very stable it is too - good for gullumps like me who regularly knock cups off their side-burner stoves. I've recently ordered one for my 450ml cup, which should give me a very light and compact way to make breakfast. I may even weigh it when it arrives, time it to boil and report back.

Of course, my cooking kit on Sunday night weight about 10kg and included the firewood I carried with me, a hatchet and saw, a big pot, loads of food, a loaded Trangia for breakfast and various ways of starting a fire. And not to forget the grill strapped to the side of my bike. It was a far more congenial way to have dinner than waiting for boiled water to rehydrate a handful of gravel in a bag, but I wouldn't want to have to lug it halfway across Wales.
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RIP
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Re: Comparison....

Post by RIP » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:02 am

:-bd. National Museum of Meths Stoves :smile:.
"There comes a time in your life Ponsonby, when you think: 'My God, I'm two-thirds of the way to the grave and what have I done?" - RIP

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Lazarus
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Re: Comparison....

Post by Lazarus » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:49 pm

solo trips is always meths unless the family go in which case i take a brukit stove

the later is 100% reliable and easy to use the former weighs much less and is perfectly fine for 1 person

Alpinum
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Re: Comparison....

Post by Alpinum » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:42 am

Ahh... the famous fuel discussion. Funny how it always reappears and the same assumptions are made again and again and some will advocate a nuanced viewing point. Again and again :lol:
In Reverse wrote:Just weighed one of my small canisters and it's 141g. Probably just over half the gas left in it.150ml of meths is 119g if my maths is right, plus the weight of the bottle.Difference is negligible n'est ce pas?
Not just that, you also get about 9 - 10L of boiling water out of 100g gas.

Try doing that with meths...

As soon as your trip is of certain length (length depends much on how much fuel you use per day) gas will be lighter than meths, no matter how much lighter the meths stove and fuel bottles are. Take this further, speak, even longer self sufficient trips and petrol will win over gas.

Do this in winter (snow/ice melting only) and petrol wins even on short trips.

Primus cartridges weights are following:
100g fill is empty 90g

230g fill, emtpy 150g

450g fill, empty 217g


An example for a solo ten day trip with little stoving:

My meths container is a used capri sun bottle, a mere 12g for up to 330mL of meths (260g as density is low) which lasts me just about 10 days; 0.5L warm-hot water (no boil) in the morning for warm cereal and a cup of tea and 0.7-0.8L in the evening, just about to the boil for noodles, mash or freeze dried food and a cuppa. I use a measuring cup, so I don't use too much fuel, as I can't extinguish the stove and pour the meths back.
6g stove, 10g windshield, 12g fuel bottle, 4 g measuring cup, 260g fuel = 292g

Gas for the same trip will be 100g cartridge with a total of 190g.
45g stove, 10g windshield (not the same one as for the meths), 190g fuel bottle and fuel = 245g

Meths is just about 50g heavier than gas.


Other example, 5 day trip with partner, cold weather (more warm drinks, more fuel consumption as water < 10°C).

2L hot water in the morning, 3L hot water in the evening. Cold water during the day.
Meths ends up at about 875g fuel for only 5 days. Makes a total of 925g.
Gas is at about 330g. Makes 100g + 230g cartridge, weighing in at 570g. Makes a total of 625g.

All in all a meths system will be 300g heavier.
Yes, 300g. That’s a breakfast and supper from pouches each containing 700-800kcal.
Or my full rain gear.
Or my 30 L rucksack.
Or my handlebar and stem.

Same goes with petrol. Once you need to melt snow, petrol quickly wins the overall weight game.


Of course, for weekends or multiday bikepacking trips outside the cold season and where I can refuel/restock every couple of days I go with meths too, but before bigger trips I always question what fuel to take.
If, for example I ride across Iceland, I get meths (stupidly expensive in Iceland) in Reykjavik, make packages I then send ahead of me to local post offices which I then visit to pick up meths and goodies in places where there's not much of such.
Now I'm going again on a very similar trip with my girlfriend (more hot water, less ground covered per day), I'm quite sure, we'll bring the gas stove as it's the less bulky and lower option.

I'm not saying that meths is rubbish, au contrary, it has it's place and is likely the best option for most users here and I likely do about 40 % of my stoving nights out with meths and 30/30 gas/petrol.

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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: Comparison....

Post by Bearbonesnorm » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:50 am

Yes, very much horses for courses Gian and no single correct answer. As you say, it all depends how long you're away for and where you're going. I think the only comparison that makes any real sense is that of a personal one conducted on a trip to trip basis where you know the parameters. Obviously, there's also 'personal preference' to factor in and on occasion that can blow all notions of minimising weight / packsize / efficiency / etc out of the water. :-bd
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benp1
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Re: Comparison....

Post by benp1 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:57 pm

The 3 factors that impact my decision aren't actually often weight. It's generally
- packability
- reusing fuel
- noise

My brew kit is meths based as I use a Snowpeak 450 mug (usually), so
- the canisters don't pack up so well when using a small mug
- I don' like taking half empty canisters if I think I might run out on the trip
- gas is louder than meths

Saying that, I've converted my trangia to gas/multifuel use and it works absolutely brilliantly like that. Packs massive but good for base camp type camping

frogatthefarriers
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Re: Comparison....

Post by frogatthefarriers » Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:18 am

Alpinum wrote: An example for a solo ten day trip with little stoving.
Ten days? I wish! It's hard enough to get a pass-out for three on the WRT :roll:
Konia kują, żaba noge podstawia...

Alpinum
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Re: Comparison....

Post by Alpinum » Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:19 pm

frogatthefarriers wrote:
Alpinum wrote: An example for a solo ten day trip with little stoving.
Ten days? I wish! It's hard enough to get a pass-out for three on the WRT :roll:
Some are 50 days... some 20, some 2.

Next time, just leave for ten days and when you come back, say you got lost :lol:

BreninBeener
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Re: Comparison....

Post by BreninBeener » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:33 pm

Ref the 100g gas canisters for the jetboil et al....i bought a brass adapter from ebay that allows you to refill one of these canisters, so you can put as much gas in as you want.

Granted you still have the volume of the canister to store, but you can def go lighter weight if you want to.

Beener

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