Breathable Jacket Fabrics

[DoctorRad]

I've been waiting for the right summer-weight NeoShell jacket to turn up on eBay or in the sales since I heard about the high breathability of that fabric. However, I have the option now of going for a very nice half-price jacket using N40r GORE-TEX PacLite, or another cheaper one which simply specifies "GORE-TEX with Paclite Technology".

Does anyone have experience of these fabrics, especially in comparison with NeoShell? How breathable are they in comparison?

[jam bo]

I've just bought a half price arcteryx alpha fl. Goretex Pro. I've got another goretex pro jacket which is probably the most breathable jacket i've ever had but doesn't fit as well.

[jameso]

I have a Paclite hooded mountain jacket for Alpine or similar riding where it may get biblical, more of a safety jacket tho and for most trips that have involved riding in average rain I don't like it, it's just not that breathable - said to be more so than most waterproof G-tex fabrics but that's relative. Once the surface is properly wet it has little real breathability, even with the mesh side pockets letting some air in. It's kept clean and proofed properly and I'm not a hot + sweaty type of rider either.

I have a G-tex Windstopper shell jacket (7mesh Resistance) that also has small gill vents and that's much better. It's not rated as 'waterproof' by Goretex specs but I've ridden for 4 days in very mixed weather carrying both this and my Paclite, I much preferred the Windstopper. Can be kept on when the rain passes and doesn't get much sweat build-up. It wets out eventually but dries very fast and it reduces how wet you get from either side, rain or condensation, well enough that it kept me drier than the Paclite. Paclite isn't bad stuff but the G-tex windstopper or Event would be my preference now.

[Mariner]

Just had an email through about the Snugpak Mountain Leader range.
Personally I dont know anything about these but might be worth some investigation and I expect someone will some input on these.
Its also Uk made.

[Zippy]

This is all a bit of a mindfield - and what works for you also depends on how "hot" you run and how active you're bring. These days I'm not bothered whether I'm dry or not, it's all about maintaining temperature at comfortable levels. When riding, I find any of the membrane layering systems too hot and not breathable enough for me (unless it's cold or my extertion levels are significantly restrained enough)...

I have a goretex pro shell berghaus jacket thing - I use it for popping to the shops etc. Anything more than that it's too hot, but it does seem to last well.
Goretex active shell is lighter and more breathable than pro iirc (unless they've changed the goalposts this year with the marketing) - but it's not as hard wearing.
Neoshell i hear is meant to be on a par with the active shell, maybe more breathable?
I've also got a gore tex paclite jacket - it's quite old now (2009/10?), but has lasted reasonably well (for that sort of garment type) - and when I got it, nothing else could touch it - i still find it too hot and it only comes out in a monsoon really. It was a revelation in my poor student days though. Again, newer paclite may be slightly different depending on what the marketing department have done...

Like Jameso said, they do become a bit limited when they've wetted out anyway, so perhaps the quality of the DWR is a higher consideration?

FWIW, I'm a paramo user, but they're not waterproof in the traditional sense, but very comfortable and what I use when being active.

Dunno if that was helpful or not!?

[DoctorRad]

I definitely run 'hot' and sweat A LOT, hence my interest in highly breathable jackets.

[jam bo]

I definitely run 'hot' and sweat A LOT, hence my interest in highly breathable jackets.

then pit zips are more important than the fabric.

[jameso]

^ Agreed, or use fabrics/layers that keep you warm when wet and are fast-drying. I don't believe any WP membrane fabrics cope with hot and sweaty riders (ie any of us when putting some effort in).

I'm a fan of a roubaix lined long sleeve tops and a thin primaloft gilet under a vented pertex layer for average UK rain for a couple of hours, base layer added if it's colder - it's not waterproof but it reduces water ingress, kills windchill and I stay warm on long drizzly rides.

[GregMay]

FWIW, I'm a paramo user

Almost like you're ashamed

*deep breath*
Hi my name is Zippy and .... I'm a Paramo user
*deep sigh*
That feels better to have in the open.
{everyone else} Hi Zippy. Welcome.

FWIW, as with others I more or less abandoned the concept of waterproof and opted for warm and moist. Most of my waterproof layers are light and are used to create a microclimate rather than keep me dry persay. Something I took from MM racing I suppose.

Also, now that Paramo appear to have a new designer who is making less.... mid 60's ramblist shaped clothing it'll be something I'm looking at again. But the weight of their systems is always going to be a penalty to accept.

[Bearbonesnorm]

What I'm doing will generally dictate what I wear - a day ride with a shower and dry clothes at the end means that I'll (fairly) happily sacrifice waterproofness for some breathability.

On a multi-day trip where it's unlikely that I'll have any opportunity to dry out, then I want waterproof at any cost ... even if that means wering a bin bag, marigolds and reducing my output a little. Stopping for the night, soaked to the skin with no spare clothes isn't much fun. Granted, I might be a bit damp from sweat but damp is much better than soaked, especially in winter.

[Zippy]

FWIW, I'm a paramo user

Almost like you're ashamed

*deep breath*
Hi my name is Zippy and .... I'm a Paramo user
*deep sigh*
That feels better to have in the open.
{everyone else} Hi Zippy. Welcome.

I feel better now

Also, now that Paramo appear to have a new designer who is making less.... mid 60's ramblist shaped clothing it'll be something I'm looking at again. But the weight of their systems is always going to be a penalty to accept.

I concur - I have their enduro waterproof and enduro windproof jackets. The enduro windproof is my go to jacket in inclement weather, and with it's great amount of venting too - it's very comfortable. The waterproof one is quite warm though (and heavy!). My only gripe with the design is there's no proper way to fold the hood away.

[whitestone]

There's a near similar thread in the other place.

I've been a Paramo user for a few years now, I switched from Goretex and the like when both my salopettes and jacket came to the end of their life at about the same time. I've also a Buffalo jacket from years ago that is still fine. Agree with Greg that the design is/was inspired by a sack of potatoes Since I run warm, it needs to be pretty cold before I am comfortable using them for something like cycling but for walking they are also good when it's wet and windy.

Last Sunday in Rovaniemi it was -10C when we were wandering around town. I was wearing a plain cotton t-shirt with a Paramo Velez smock and I was fine.

[DoctorRad]

then pit zips are more important than the fabric.

Then I think the roomy Gore-Tex Paclite with pit zips may just clinch it...!

That said, how well does Paramo work if you do run hot and sweaty?

[ctznsmith]

That said, how well does Paramo work if you do run hot and sweaty?

Hi, I'm Ben and *sob* I'm also a Paramo user.

In my experience you get really hot and sweaty BUT you then dry out quite quickly instead of feeling clammy/sticky.

[Fat tyre kicker]

Another Paramo and Buffalo user here, only use the Buffalo stuff if I'm inactive, i.e. Winter
Camping etc really, I have a few Paramo jackets and a gilet and sleeves with insulation
And find it to be the best all round performer. I have tried Gore-tex, sympatex, Lowe alpines
Ceramic thingymajig and have never really got along with any, I run hot and I sweat in all of the
So called 'breathable' stuff. Dont sweat in Paramo. I was out in my 15yr old old Rab pertex
Sampling 'Doris's' fine weather this morning and felt comfortable, it's 95 percent waterproof mostly
unless Freshly reproved then 100 percent, never sweat in it though.

[deft punk]

I can't find a membraned jacket to suit me, so I'm in the light windproof camp.
I also pack a waterproof, but not breathable, smock for throwing over the top when the weather turns hellish enough to need it.

[voodoo_simon]

Paclite is no where near as breathable as Neoshell.

Used Paclite, hyvent (TNF), marmots own etc and all these 2.5. layer style jackets are good at being waterproof but rubbish at breathing.

Gore active shell, eVent and Neoshell are great at doing both (Neoshell is probably the best but a close call with active shell). I've worn my Neoshell on those days when the rain is off and on and it works really well, takes the longest to get damp inside (you know those days when you put your jacket on and then half an hour later, take it off, then half an hour later put it back on etc - Neoshell is great for those conditions as you can leave it on)

[PaulB]

My few penneth. I work in the outdoor world and love cold climates.
I have over the years been looked after (given) kit by Patagonia, Mountain Equipment and Paramo, and well looked after by Buffalo (paid money).

Patagonia... love the cut and the performance usually lasted the longest when compared to other similar products. A full suit would last me 1-2 months before being trashed, leaking etc.
ME... don't bother wasting your money. Lasted a day or two before being sieve like.
NFace... similar to ME
Paramo... similar to what has been said above. Heavy, warm, needs cleaning regularly. Easy to repair, more robust than Gore IMHE. I have a jacket (Aspira?) that I was given in 98ish as a dog handler it is repaired with storm sure and spinnaker tape on the outer (dog wanted a comfy bed) and still keeps the weather at bay. I also have saloppettes, Valeze (ready for replacing it's starting to die through lots of hardwork), and Aspira 2 and they are sound. The kit I would turn to on a day like today. Everyday workwear or take on exped where getting kit dry would be problematic.
Buffalo... superb in the cold, windy, dirty, damp. Mucky work wear or in the spare clothing bag for when others a suffering. Would be interesting to try out in Rovaniemi, I only have experience when pulking at minus silly numbers. From experience, you need to wear a base layer if you are at altitude purely to protect from sunburn if the vents are open.

If reproofing with current products, use Grangers, it's chemical structure is a better DWR than Nikwax. And yes, your old coats were better, it's all to do with saving the environment. Silicone concrete/brick treatment works on goretex, doesn't breathe well, but works

Forgot to add - Endura Emergency Shell... amazed at how well it worked in the wind, snow and driving rain a week last Sunday (12/2) 2 hour ride MTB Orienteering so working hard work (33km 800m ascent). Absolutely bone dry inside, tiny pack size and now available with integrated hood. 100% money on this for me.

[dlovett]

I definitely run 'hot' and sweat A LOT, hence my interest in highly breathable jackets.

I find that my Berghaus Hyper Hydroshell is very breathable. And wind/water proof, light, just expensive.

[fatbikephil]

I was a bit underwhelmed by my paclight trousers as they appear to be less water proof and no more breathable than a pair of cheapo vaude over trousers I used to use (which were lighter too) A few people I met on the Highland trail in 2015 were using pac lite jackets and they all seem to be leaking (bin bags were being employed to help!)

I'm a paramo convert as its always kept the rain out and high temps and heavy rain are a rarity in Scotland so its never been too warm for me. I'd go with paramo troos as well but the quito trousers don't come in long leg so no good for me.

As an aside I got a buffalo micro fleece / pertex gillet for this winter and its been bloody brilliant

[DoctorRad]

I find that my Berghaus Hyper Hydroshell is very breathable. And wind/water proof, light, just expensive.

This one? Actually looks pretty much spot-on what I've been looking for for summer use. I have a full-on winter Gore-Tex which has pit zips and so is bearable to cycle in at anything below around 10C, so this looks like a good bet for 'just-in-case' use for the rest of the year.

Anything else to compete?

Thanks to all the folks who recommended Buffaloes... I used to have a Buffalo Shirt, but it was simply too hot for me at anything above around freezing point, even without a base layer. I just wasn't getting any use out of it.

[GregMay]

Also, I'll second the talking down of Paclite - the worst Gore material I've ever used.

Also agree that the most aged, working, jackets I still have going are Patagonia. My 18 year old hardshell died over the weekend. It'll probably be replaced with another Patagonia one - posibly something from Paramo. Budget is going to take a hammering as I'd just replaced my OMM jacket with one of the new fancy eVent ones.

[NorwayCalling]

In Norway I practically live in my Paramo - yes heavy, yes unfashionable but easy to wash/proof, no sweat issues at all.

Just bought a new one for UK usage and hope it will be just as good.

I used to have a waterproof for when it rained, pull out of bags and put on. Now i just live in the paramo and ware a very lightweight baser layer under it... so never gets taken off, so never gets packed away (so no issues with weight/bulk).

It simply works.

[Scott L]

I'm another paramo user.

Have the Paramo Quito in small which fit wise is actually really un paramo like. I'm five foot 10 and skinny and its long enough in the body and arms and not too baggy.

Definitely warmer and heavier than other jackets but in biblical conditions I wouldn't want to wear anything else. I'm a sweater and having huge pit zips is a must. Mine is 500 g and for a typical bikepacking trip I'll carry an insulated vest to complement it for warmth rather than an insulated jacket. So the weight doesn't seem too bad then compared to a mid weight Gore Jacket and full down jacket combo.

[ZeroDarkBivi]

Some great advice here. Surprised though to hear bad experiences with ME; never had any problems with several garments, and their long term customer service has been excellent. Paclite - same here, enough said. I am giving Neoshell a go now, with a well designed, light smock from Jottnar. It is certainly the most breathable of these types of jackets, probably linked to being a tiny bit less windproof. I suspect, like all of these things, the DWR will be the weakest link in the longer term, hence thing to avoid using a pack or any thing that rubs against it.

I have been tempted to try Paramo, with so many converters who swear by it, but even the new designs are just too visually challenging for me to spend money on... Vanity is not a virtue, but there is still a threshold!