Sleeping bag rating

[deejayen]

I know it's far from being an exact science, but I'm wondering what sort of conditions and temperatures people are using the various lightweight PHD sleeping bags in.

I think I'm a cold sleeper, and I haven't tried many sleeping bags. I bought a MacPac Neve many years ago, and I've been trying it out at home recently. It's a bag which doesn't have any down on the bottom - it just has a sleeve into which you can slide a sleeping mat. I remember MacPac describing it as a Winter bag, but I've spent a few miserable nights in it when the temperature was nowhere close to freezing. In recent nights I've been measuring the indoor temperature while sleeping in the bag. I've been laying on a bed rather than on a sleeping mat. It looks like it's okay at 12 or 14 degrees, and on the borderline at 10 degrees. When the temperature dips to 8 degrees it's getting chilly.

I see that some of the ultra light PHD ones are rated at 8, 5, or 0 degrees. However, they might be more of a summer bag, or suited to those who never feel the cold. It would be great to have a light sleeping bag which takes up hardly any space, but sleeping bags are an expensive purchase to get completely wrong.

Do the bags with higher fill-power down (such as 900, 950 or 1000) have a lot of drawbacks, such as losing loft and warmth when not completely bone dry (ie not wet, but when being used on cold, damp nights)?

[Bearbonesnorm]

Do the bags with higher fill-power down (such as 900, 950 or 1000) have a lot of drawbacks, such as losing loft and warmth when not completely bone dry (ie not wet, but when being used on cold, damp nights)?

Not really, the main drawback is cost, however there is a school of thought which thinks that down containing a higher % of feathers will be better in conditions you describe due to the fact that the feathers are less effected by damp and act like little springs helping to keep the bag lofting ... so 80/20 rather than 90/10 but that will mean the down has a lower fp, so you'll need a heavier bag if everything else is equal.

I like phd stuff but I dislike the fact they won't say how much down their stuff contains, which makes comparing different bags or judging the suitability, almost impossible.

[whitestone]

I've a PHD Minim 200 which is my summer bag, it's rated to 5C (I think). I'm a fairly warm sleeper, I've used it down to 2-3C but that's with a decent sleeping mat (Exped Synmat Winterlite) and a bivy bag. I've also used it with a Klymit X-Frame mat which was a little uncomfortable temperature wise as it's an uninsulated mat. I also have a Cumulus 150 quilt which is roughly equivalent temp rating wise but I can use it as an outer to the PHD and with that system (Exped mat; PHD bag inside the Cumulus quilt; all inside a Hunka XL bivy bag) I'm good to -5C (at least)

I can't remember if I'd come across the Macpac Neve before so a quick search came up with a review by Andy Kirkpatrick - http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/top_down If the bag is old then it could have lost some of it's down, the down could also be clumping together which will reduce its effectiveness. Without comparing it to a new one, it's hard to say if either of these are the case.

PHD bags are very good but expensive so I'd be hesitant about buying one "on-spec" as it were. Edit: PHD do have a sale on at the mo - the Minim 500 looks pretty good http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/minim-500-down-sleeping-bag

There's lots of threads on here about sleeping systems - think of things as a system rather than just a sleeping bag - with the kit mentioned above I can cope with most UK conditions for about the same cost as a single 3 season bag.

[deejayen]

Thanks for that, it's helpful. I was thinking that a combination might be the way to go, and was looking at a quilt along with a light bag. It's just difficult to know which bag would be a good starting point. I also have a big PHD bag I bought years ago, but it's far too bulky and heavy to take on a bike. I suppose I was hoping that one of the light bags with high fill-power down would be magically warm. The other bag which interests me is the Rab Infinity 300 - it looks fairly light, but it seems to be well constructed for warmth.

[whitestone]

I've also got a Rab Expedition 1200g bag that's rated to something like -25C. I've had it 20 years and used it maybe 20 times, mostly in the Alps winter climbing. Sure it's a nice bag to have but it's impractical for most purposes in this country. I'll be using it in Finland in February though

One advantage of the bag + quilt pairing is that in summer I'll use the quilt and my wife will take the bag then once it gets cooler I'll use both layered up and she'll use her 3 season sleeping bag so we get decent usage out of all items.

If you think you sleep cool then something like the PHD Minim 300 which is rated to 0C and is currently £200 in their sale so significantly cheaper than the Rab Infinity, you'd be able to get a quilt as well with the difference!

[Bearbonesnorm]

Have you considered a Cumulus 450 quilt?

[benp1]

Theres one on ebay- not mine I should add

[Mike]

Oh food for thought I might try my rab 250 infinity inside my cumulus 150 as a winter setup that should be cozy :0)

[Scattamah]

Oh the subject of doubling up bags/quilts...Mrs Scattamah picked up a cheap summer down throw from Costco in the US and is in the process of doing a baffle hack for me. Reduced the overall size of the quilt but will make it so it'll fit in/over my primary bag nicely. Look for Double Black Diamond down quilt on Amazon or the like...can be found for 19.99USD or less so import VAT shouldn't be an issue.

Greetz

S.

[Cheeky Monkey]

How have you stored the bag? If significantly compressed (that might even be stored in it's stuff-sac) then it could have lsot a lot of it's loft. once that goes or is significantly reduced the insulation is going to be much less. As your bag isn't insulated underneath then a mat (n/a to your bed-test ;-) is going to be critical. Lie on a cold surface without an adequate insulator (and not all mats are equal) and it's very unlikelyt he bag will be warm enough to beat the cooling effects of the floor.

Stu has pointed it out before and I agree, getting into a bag cold is a real struggle to warm up. Do some exercise and/or eat something warm before getting in your pit and it's more likely to create a warm cosy environment. I find insulation of key bits important so, whilst I sleep warm, some long johns and a base layer help in the colder seasons. I can't usually drop-off with cold feet so merino socks are brilliant for that.

Loads of issues, all very person-specific. Sorry, no blinking help

[Mariner]

Oh the subject of doubling up bags/quilts....

Currently looking at this myself but stuck in the extra weight/volume argument.

[whitestone]

Oh the subject of doubling up bags/quilts....

Currently looking at this myself but stuck in the extra weight/volume argument.

Not sure on the volume front but weight wise the pairing I have is about 800g which compares with 600g for the equivalent rated PHD sleeping bag (this is assuming that the -5C that I have used the combination in is actually the limit). This makes sense as the bag/quilt combo has two complete outer shells vs the bag's one and the weight of a shell is 200g or thereabouts. The cost is the same - I think there's about £10 in it.

The whole of my cold seasons bivy kit (sleeping bag; quilt; sleeping mat & Schnozzle; bivy bag) goes into an Alpkit Airlok Dual 13L dry bag with ease and I've got room for some clothing as well.

[Scattamah]

The DBD down throw in question...squishes to about the size of a Nalgene bottle or perhaps a coke can if you're a bit more forceful. Weight isn't too bad; it's 700 fill so perhaps not as light as I'd like it to be, but for the price it's tough to beat. Probably will only get used when it's going to drop below zero and I'm out for a few days in it, or in summer when I'm wanting to trim down how much I pack.

After using the throw on its own when travelling last month, I'd say I'll get a 5-8 degree extension over the 0/-2 my Zpacks bag is currently giving me. Pretty reasonable for 15 quid.

Greetz

S.

[Bearbonesnorm]

it's 700 fill

The ones I've seen are also 80/20 which means something doesn't quite stack up ... achieving 700fp from 80/20 would be fairly special.

[Scattamah]

Fair cop. It says 700 on the label, hence my quote. All I know is it was warm enough to keep the cold off me when sitting in the van @ 3am on Dead Mans Pass in Oregon last month. IIRC it was in the mid 30's at the time. This was prior to the baffle hack which increases the lofting by around 20-50%.

[Edit: found the faux baffle hack article - http://imgur.com/a/pRAWJ ]

Greetz

S.

[deejayen]

Thanks. I think it's all a bit of a gamble without being able to try them.

My bag hasn't been stored in a stuff-sac - it's usually just stored loose in a wardrobe. It won't be as warm now as when it was new, but I've always found it colder than expected.

Thinking about it, I suspect I'm a cold sleeper, which makes it more difficult to work out which bag to buy. I bought my PHD bag when they were much cheaper than they are now, and I think the down wasn't as fluffy in those days! I think it's a Diamir 900, and it was rated at something like -20 or -30. I've not used it that often, and then only when car camping, but I've never been too hot in it - not even when I once slept in one of those wooden chalet things on a campsite!

I'll go to some outdoor equipment shops and see what the current bags are like. I think something like that aforementioned RAB Infinity might be okay, as I saw them when they were launched, and from what I remember the fabric was lightweight and clingy, and the down seemed quite fluffy. Perhaps a Mountain Equipment one with stretchy fabric might also be good. However, I had a Mountain Equipment down jacket a few years ago, and wasn't impressed that they couldn't repair it. At least with PHD they're all made in the UK.

[Chew]

I'm suggesting that if you're feeling cold in a -20/-30c bag, then either the ratings are wrong, the bags faulty, or you have some kind of serious medical problem

Is that the comfort rating or the extreme rating?

[deejayen]

No, I don't feel cold in that sleeping bag - just comfortable! However, it's big and heavy, so no use for cycling.

[whitestone]

I think I'd be basting in the Diamir 900 - http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/diamir-900-down-sleeping-bag That's a seriously warm bag, unless you were bivvying out in the Scottish Highlands during those hard winters a couple of years ago then I can't see it being usable in the UK.

[Bearbonesnorm]

That's a very serious sleeping bag and the bloke's still got his jacket on - brrr

[jameso]

what sort of conditions and temperatures people are using the various lightweight PHD sleeping bags in.

I have a Minim Ultra, rated to 8 deg. Fwiw I'm a bit on the skinny side, don't like to be too hot when sleeping and usually sleep in boxers, socks and a l/s top with a thin jacket at times. I've used it spring-autumn in the UK in a bivi bag where it's ok to about 5-6 degrees and on snow at ~2 degrees in race conditions - that was chilly but bearable enough to get a couple of hours sleep. I also have a PHD half bag / half quilt thing they made as a one-off using similar down and construction, they estimated that as a similar temp rating at less weight and I've found it ok to around 6 deg so probably right, it's roughly matching the Minim Ultra 8 deg rating.
My 4 degree rated ~650g, ME Xero 250 bag is a bit warmer, OK to frost point, so about as much warmer as I'd expect from the rating difference of 4 deg. Unscientific I know .. but maybe of use. What I've found with any bag is that a down gilet used as a neck-chest filler/baffle makes a fair bit of difference, so how you use the bag seems important.

[deejayen]

Well, I tried the Diamir 900 at 8 degrees. As I said, mine isn't the current model,. so I don't think it's rated as warm as the current model, but it's still a serious looking sleeping bag at full loft! The worrying thing is that I was just pleasantly cosy! I didn't have it fully zipped up, though - just zipped up to around my waist, and I wrapped the top bit around me. I'm not sure what this tells me.. Does it mean I need to add something like 10 or 15 degrees to a sleeping bag's rating, and if so, which one of the three ratings? The problem with that is it totally kills any notion of getting a bike-packable sleeping bag.

I'm near Inverness, so nights are rarely balmy. The last time I went cycle camping was in May a year or two ago, and there was a ground frost, and I nearly froze to death! I can't remember what gear I had with me, but I did use a bike trailer, so I'd have had at least my MacPac down bag and a Thermarest or Exped Down mat (in a 1-man tent).

The local shop didn't have many decent bags in stock. They had a Rab Neutrino 200, but not the Rab Infinity 300. The Neutrino 200 looked quite fluffed-up, but when I looked through it against a light there didn't seem to be much down in it.

[Bearbonesnorm]

which one of the three ratings?

You need to take notice of the comfort rating (the highest rating listed).

To remain comfortably warm, I generally need to add around 5 - 8 degrees to what the manufactures claim ... it's not that they're wrong, just that I sleep cold. I would estimate that for you to remain comfortable at 0c, you'll need a bag that contains at least 600g of decent quality down - 700fp or above and with a decent (box wall or similar) baffle arragement.

[whitestone]

This is what the three figures mean (or are meant to mean):

Comfort Temp – this is the temperature at which a 'standard' adult woman can expect to have a comfortable night's sleep.

Limit Temp – this is the temperature at which a 'standard' adult male can expect to have a comfortable night's sleep in a curled position.

Extreme Temp – this is a survival only rating for a 'standard' adult woman. At this temperature there is a serious risk of hypothermia and other temperature related ailments such as frostbite.

This is from the standard EN 13537

One of them internet linky things - https://www.ellis-brigham.com/advice-in ... ying-guide

[deejayen]

Thanks very much for that.

Do you have any experience of how the PHD temperature ratings correspond to the EN 13537 ratings? Is the PHD rating equivalent to the Limit Temp rather than the Comfort Temp?

It looks like a Hispar 500K (rated -15) or similar would do the trick as a 3-season bag (decently warm, and not too heavy), but they're extremely expensive now! The Rab Infinity 500 has a Comfort Limit of -2, but is closer to affordable.