E-Bike Threat

ZeroDarkBivi · Post by **ZeroDarkBivi** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:41 am

An interesting article exposing the threat to trail / bridleway access if e-bikes are categorised as push bikes rather than the motorcycles that they are. It will be difficult to back-track once the equestrian & ramblers lobby get all bikes banned from our trails.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2015/09/11/cou ... ore-109968

voodoo_simon · Post by **voodoo_simon** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:43 am

My cards are on the table, I'm all for them

Anything to get people out cycling is a good thing. I've tried a Raleigh shopping style e bike and it was much more closer to a bicycle than a motorbike.

Was in Chamonix in the summer and saw write a few e bikes, the Europeans have a much better attitude towards equipment than us Brits

Wotsits · Post by **Wotsits** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:51 am

For me, this says more about the ramblers, etc than anything else..

Some of them are no better than the land owners that they rallied against during the interwar years..

ScotRoutes · Post by **ScotRoutes** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:17 pm

Threat?

Having ridden quite a few motorbikes and ebikes I can assure you they are completely different things.

DrMekon · Post by **DrMekon** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:23 pm

I'm quite tempted to get some MSc students to do a systematic review of the effects of ebikes on health, utilisation and commuting mode share. A quick search suggests that trial participants do use cars less.

Cards on the table, we have a 400w cargotrike that we use for transporting kids and shopping about. It could do with about another 600w now my kids are getting bigger. I think cargobikes are great for mobility. However, they are easy to tweak - there is a guy on my commute with a 2000w BSO that launches like a sportsbike. I really don't want to see 1000w chipped Haibikes spraying roost up climbs.

FLV · Post by **FLV** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:32 pm

All people denying access to others to the countryside get on my nerves quite a lot.

Ramblers - Its just for us
Horsists - Its just for us (and ramblers), those pedal bikes are too fast
Bikes - Its Just for us, ramblers and I suppose the horse types if they could control their animals.
Engines - Cant we play too, wish the ramblers would get out of the way, and horses shouldn't be allowed as they're not in control of their animals
Road Drivers on country lanes - Bloody cyclists and horses, a danger to us all and making me late...

Should we just close the whole thing and keep everyone out... maybe build tubes for us all to travel in.

voodoo_simon · Post by **voodoo_simon** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:45 pm

FLV wrote:All people denying access to others to the countryside get on my nerves quite a lot.

Ramblers - Its just for us
Horsists - Its just for us (and ramblers), those pedal bikes are too fast
Bikes - Its Just for us, ramblers and I suppose the horse types if they could control their animals.
Engines - Cant we play too, wish the ramblers would get out of the way, and horses shouldn't be allowed as they're not in control of their animals
Road Drivers on country lanes - Bloody cyclists and horses, a danger to us all and making me late...

Should we just close the whole thing and keep everyone out... maybe build tubes for us all to travel in.

Actually, you've got a point. I recently watched some people green laning in a 4x4 (not sure why) and the video shown ramblers chasing them and throwing rocks at the vehicles! Whether you agree with 4x4, they had every right to be there next to the ramblers

Adventurer · Post by **Adventurer** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 2:14 pm

I've just 45 mins ago been cycling along the Bridleway that runs past Bury Ditches hill in Shropshire. And 2 off road motor X bikes past me and then later on another pair of motor X bikes past me.

This is during a busy warm weekend with loads of walkers about and a fell running race.

HaYWiRe · Post by **HaYWiRe** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:24 pm

The debate Is clearly more prominent in certain countries than others, but his points i agree with more on the reckless side of things, "like giving a new driver a sports car" stood out to be

However I am all for getting more people riding, and know a few that say they're fitter and do more exercise on an ebike because they can ride for longer and at a steady effort compared to without assistance, rather than burning out after 2 miles. And being....of a form of disability I really support helping people get fitter and out there

The biggest separation I believe needs to be made is that an 'ebike' is "electric assisted bicycle" NOT "electric powered"
There is a,difference between "assistance" and just doing all the work for you

He makes a point with branding, a city ebike might as well be a motor vehicle (that doesn't need a licence) seeing as it'll be used on roads, but a full sus 8"+ enduro ebike doesn't really preach the message of getting less able people riding, to me that just seems like lazy downhillers,
Maybe its because I ride road and XC...but I like to Earn my decents....with a bloody gnarly climb

ScotRoutes · Post by **ScotRoutes** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:38 pm

HaYWiRe wrote:a full sus 8"+ enduro ebike doesn't really preach the message of getting less able people riding, to me that just seems like lazy downhillers,

Yep, only fit people who can cycle up to the top of a hill should have the fun of riding down it eh? Like all these disabled folk - why should they be allowed to have any fun?

Cheeky Monkey · Post by **Cheeky Monkey** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:52 pm

Oh dear laws it's all a bit STW ain't it

ScotRoutes · Post by **ScotRoutes** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:14 pm

Cheeky Monkey wrote:Oh dear laws it's all a bit STW ain't it

Sorry - what does that mean?

Richard G · Post by **Richard G** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:37 pm

I'm all for them. I think it's pretty much inevitable that I'll need one at some point in my life if I'm going to continue to mountain bike (either because of injury or old age)... so yeah, happy to see them on trails.

As for being able to output 4x what a normal rider could. Are we to ban Olympic cross country riders from our trails too?

Edit - To be clear, I'm talking about pedal assist.

LSJ · Post by **LSJ** » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:45 pm

HaYWiRe wrote: but a full sus 8"+ enduro ebike doesn't really preach the message of getting less able people riding, to me that just seems like lazy downhillers,

That argument just doesn't stick.. It's like saying you are not allowed to downhill ski, unless you have randoneed on the way up.. If you take the lift your are a lazy or a risk..

I do road and mtb. I used to do both with a mate, now we only do road together. And the only reason we can do road together still, is because he got him self an ebike. (He had a bit of an accident, which left him wIth permanent disability).
With the ebike we can still go out on road rides together. Even go camping (Denmark literally have no nature), so on hard gravel paths (old closed railroad lines), find one of the 2000 shelters and Bivi up...
And that's all thanks to the e bike.. And he is looking into getting a mtb also as an ebike (matter of finances). He used to travel a lot to the alps and do downhill and is very good at it.. Way better than me.. But yes now he needs some help getting up, but he can still beat the daylights out of me on the way down. We hiked up 4 and him, and had five bikes.. He downhilled as good as ever!

So I disagree with the above statement, and the article as such. Just because people don't taste the iron/blood taste on the way up, should that exclude them from the thrill and laughs on the way down..

Lars

whitestone · Post by **whitestone** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:44 am

I think one or two people have missed the tone of Haywire's last paragraph.

To me it was a dig at those who moan at having to put any effort in to gain the rewards even when they are capable of doing so. Even someone like Brian Robinson now uses an e-bike and he can hardly be accused of not having put in the effort as does (sadly) Martyn Ashton.

I've been downhill skiing and the lift infrastructure is an intrinsic part of the "experience" and I enjoy it all for what it is. This summer I went to Chamonix mountain biking and used those same lifts to gain access to the trails which was fine as well though it does feel a bit like going to McDonald's when there's a Michelin starred restaurant next door.

Using an e-bike to help with infirmity or injury isn't really a problem, using one because you simply can't be bothered to make the effort is (IMO of course

).

jameso · Post by **jameso** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:10 am

if e-bikes are categorised as push bikes rather than the motorcycles that they are.

Not 'if' - they already are categorised as bikes if they're 250W pedelecs. An E-bike with a road/bike-legal power assist is still a bike, no need for the helmet, reg and licensing that a motorbike needs. That means full bridleway access already.

jameso · Post by **jameso** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:20 am

It will be difficult to back-track once the equestrian & ramblers lobby get all bikes banned from our trails.

It won't happen. It may mean revisions to the details of access regulations to specifically cover that type of 250W+ E-bike but since they're already classed as a road-licensed motorbike of sorts they're already limited to Byways etc like a green-laner motorbike. A 250W pedelec can go where any bike can go. So there's no change needed.

Understanding European classification for E-bikes makes the 'loss of access!!' sky falling in thing seem a bit of a non-issue. The Bikerumor article is looking at the situation in the US which is different, I can understand the concern there.

Bearbonesnorm · Post by **Bearbonesnorm** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:42 am

I think people are missing the real issue here. Never mind access, closures, red tape and the potential legal issues ... what are Strava going to do?

jameso · Post by **jameso** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:46 am

Oh I've already tried to sign my OH up to Strava now she has an E-bike : )

whitestone · Post by **whitestone** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:55 am

Bearbonesnorm wrote:I think people are missing the real issue here. Never mind access, closures, red tape and the potential legal issues ... what are Strava going to do?

There's already been instances of this apparently: someone doing a steady 15mph on a ride round Exmoor, up 25% gradients included.

Richard G · Post by **Richard G** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:57 am

I already assume that anyone faster than me on Strava was using an ebike.

Single Speed George · Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:38 pm

i do think i agree with the article that electric bikes are not the same as bikes and thus should be treated more like motor bikes. there are plenty of byways up here so ye seems sencible as they are not human powerd .... or maby you should have to charge the battery with your turbo trainer hooked up to a dyno

hahaha anyway ....

i only have single speed bikes so I don't really get electric bikes unless you are too infirm to ride a normal bike though i will probably need one in a few years when my knees have collapsed from to much single speed ...

HaYWiRe · Post by **HaYWiRe** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:45 pm

I think my statement has been taken out of context, and reading now I apologise for poor wording, but like its been said, there are people who are perfectly capable of riding but would rather skip the hard work, I mean we all would like that but not everyone can afford such electric wizardry...

Doesn't this in turn ruin it for people with a smaller budget in the same way it would someone who isn't physically able to so?

The ebike can do great things for those less able, and I am all for that in more ways than you may realise, but maybe I've just grown up around too many kids racing around on electric wheelchairs....
It only takes a few to ruin it for the many, I'm just happy to be alive and fit enough

Richard G · Post by **Richard G** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:59 pm

I'm a bit confused about how it might ruin it for those who can't afford e-bikes? I mean... I can afford one, but I like the challenge / reward of getting up a stupid big hill using nothing but my own stubbornness. If someone breezes past me on an ebike, so be it. It's their choice to make and whilst I probably think less of them (as I'm sure to singlespeed nutters of me!), it doesn't affect my enjoyment in any way.

Sure, if it leads to mountain biking being restricted in some way, but I can't see that happening.

ScotRoutes · Post by **ScotRoutes** » Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:53 pm

Richard G wrote:I'm a bit confused about how it might ruin it for those who can't afford e-bikes? I mean... I can afford one, but I like the challenge / reward of getting up a stupid big hill using nothing but my own stubbornness. If someone breezes past me on an ebike, so be it. It's their choice to make ...................................... it doesn't affect my enjoyment in any way.

Sure, if it leads to mountain biking being restricted in some way, but I can't see that happening.

That. If someone uses an ebike to get out and enjoy themselves, why should I feel anything negative towards them at all?

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