It's raining and I'm procrastinating rather than riding in wet boots again.
Apologies if this seems spammy, mods did ok a commercially-related post so I thought I'd see how it goes.
I work at Evans Cycles and I've got a new project on, it's been a long time in the background and a few things have changed since we did this in 2012 (UK made - but not cost effective really)
FW Evans was a British touring brand from the 1920s onward. Evans Cycles grew from the FW Evans bike range and shop and we want to go back to our roots a little. It helps that my real passion in bikes is in that steel frame / adventure bike area too so it sees enough 'out of office' hours to get it going in fits and starts. More info in a 1939 catalogue here http://www.bikebrothers.co.uk/evans_1939cat.htm
We're working on what we think they'd be making now if the brand had continued. To me, touring is as much about bikepacking now as steel drop-bar bikes with panniers. I love road bikes and prototypes are made, more are due soon, but the bikepacker is a very personal project.
It'd be great to hear any comments on first impressions of 'FW Evans' as a brand and Evans making bike-packers, as well as any thoughts on the aspects of the early proto.
I'm not a fan of design by committee and I'm not going to list my design features and reasoning online yet, on the CAD screen the bike is laid out and I've got a sample order in for V1, but I am interested in the wider opinions here that may swing a few details. In return for this post I'll pledge a production F+F to Stuart for event prize/promo/test etc use - these things don't happen very fast though. Mainly because I spend too long faffing over details.
If you have any opinions or general interest please email me direct, I'd welcome it and I'm happy to discuss more specific details by email - james.olsen.remote at hotmail.co.uk, or PM here.
I thought your Pinnacle Ramin 1 looked very bikepacking, how about working on that in steel with some way of running ss aswell as gears??
And maybe the space to run 29+ tires front and back for if it really takes off??
I like the look of it. The two blue bands look nice as does the retro FW Evans decals. Your green and gold corporate colours may work as well.
Where I think you may struggle is perception. Commuters in the big cities where your shops generally are just want mudguards and a rack to get to and from work. Evans are now thought of as mass market, big brand stuff with some own brand stuff thrown in to keep costs down and/or increase profits.
Really serious expedition tourers go to Mercian, Roberts, Rourke etc. Your bike may be just as good but perception will be that a £1,000 frameset from Mercian will be 'better'.
How are you going to promote it when set along side the nice shiny carbon Specialized, Trek and BMC that will be quicker on the Box Hill Strava challenge? I think you may need to get your marketing bods in on this to differentiate. Don't know your anticipated price point but probably not cheap if made in UK OTOH this should be a good selling point. If somebody like Lee Cooper is making them you might have one order already;-)
Maybe produce some saddles, similar to Brookes, with saddle bag loops in to allow saddlebags. Quite like heading out with my saddlebag sometimes.
Perhaps marketing could include a separate / linked website with suggested tours for people new to touring. There are a few independent sites of this sort though.
A frameset option would be good. Somebody who balks at paying Mercian prices might knock a bike together from bits they have.
Good luck with project, maybe keep us up to date with it on this thread.
Blackhound wrote:Where I think you may struggle is perception. Commuters in the big cities where your shops generally are just want mudguards and a rack to get to and from work. Evans are now thought of as mass market, big brand stuff with some own brand stuff thrown in to keep costs down and/or increase profits.
Really serious expedition tourers go to Mercian, Roberts, Rourke etc. Your bike may be just as good but perception will be that a £1,000 frameset from Mercian will be 'better'.
Before you place all of your efforts into the bike, look at the marketing first.
Who is going to be your typical customer and what are they looking for in a touring bike?
Price point/total market size/competitors?
Hopefully useful stuff, but maybe not what you were initially expecting :?
Plenty of mud clearance which would also allow 29+ tyres as above
High routed cables - under the top tube?
Narrow seat tube for a nice flexy seat post
Maybe splitable stays to allow a belt drive. Although maybe getting roo niche?
Swappable/adjusta droppouts for gears, rohlof, alpine - although watch the routing if you go with the 11 speed one as its a bit of a tinker for needing particular cable routing
Wide head tube to allow all current fork steered standards
The narrowest tubing you can find for a slinky/retro looking frame
Really think about bottle bosses or a different system, as they are never in the right place on small or medium frames to fit a decent frame bag too.
If going rigid then. Carbon forks rather than steel, lighter, more compliant can make a feature of their stripped down carbon loveliness
No idea about angles etc but obviously a 'shorter than a racey bike's' top tube is going to give more comfort over a long time on it. And allow for bike fit to be tweaked via seat post, stem, funky bars Tec.
I'm basing this on an 'average' 29er with 'modern' geo'
I would like:
Longer than average headtube.
Shorter than average TT.
135mm rear end and 100mm forks but with 29+ clearance.
Cage mount under downtube.
Standard BSA BB in 73mm flavour.
27.2mm seat post.
1 1/8 headtube or possibly 44mm so any fork will fit.
Alternator type dropouts.
Under BB cable routing ... stops it interfering with luggage.
I do have a liking for frames with a double TT, eh Trek Sawyer, On-One fatty, WTF, etc.
I wouldn't have any issue buying a frame with Evans on, as long as it did what I wanted and was good value. In fact the only bike I would never buy would be a Specialized as their marketing dept are far more skillful than their designers
Personally its really nice to see someone trying to breathe life back into a brand like FW Evans.
I agree with Kevin and the others, I think perception is likely to be a problem.
Depends on the market you're aiming at and what sort of volumes I guess.
If the product is strong enough and the marketing can pitch it correctly I expect it could work.
Didnt you have a hand in earlier Genesis bikes?
They do well, but dont spend a lot of time telling people Madison own them.
If the product is strong enough and the marketing can pitch it correctly I expect it could work.
Totally agree ... I think Saracen are a prime example. It's taken a couple of years but the bike buying publics perception of the brand is very different to what it once was.
Irrespective of how well designed / specced the bike is (& I have no doubt it will be with all James's experience...), the main problem will be (speaking as someone who's been marketing sports gear, including bikes, for nearly thirty years) convincing the touring market (or any premium / niche one for that matter) of the ability of the Evans brand to 'to go back to our roots a little'. Cottage industries (which, lets face it all the lusted-after marques are... ) sit perceptually 180 degrees away from where Evans is seen to be. (Saracen haven't really had to make any major shift any brand perception - back in the day they were 'cheap rad', now that they're a bit more pricey they're taken a little more seriously.. but they're still in the 'rad' segment)
Be happy to be proved wrong tho ... sure it'll be a fine machine & be good to see Evans's ££ put into developing something worthwhile like this
royAB wrote:Irrespective of how well designed / specced the bike is (& I have no doubt it will be with all James's experience...), the main problem will be (speaking as someone who's been marketing sports gear, including bikes, for nearly thirty years) convincing the touring market (or any premium / niche one for that matter) of the ability of the Evans brand to 'to go back to our roots a little'. Cottage industries (which, lets face it all the lusted-after marques are... ) sit perceptually 180 degrees away from where Evans is seen to be. (Saracen haven't really had to make any major shift any brand perception - back in the day they were 'cheap rad', now that they're a bit more pricey they're taken a little more seriously.. but they're still in the 'rad' segment)
I'd love to be proved wrong tho ... sure it'll be a fine machine & be good to see Evans's ££ put into developing something worthwhile like this
What royAB says, he knows his stuff.
I have to say the idea of an Evans branded bike doesn't appeal to me for bikepacking, I like the look of the above retro styled road bike, but you'll have a struggle to compete with bigger brands for the complete bike and the more niche brands for frames.
Thanks.. comments appreciated. Didn't expect that much to go through after a few hours out!
Dan_K, the Ramin would do fine as a bikepacker I think (with a lower gear maybe), and what you're suggesting isn't far off what I'm working on. Needs to be more than people expect maybe, to be seen as more than a bandwagon-jumper?
Blackhound, I share your concerns. Marketing is as frustrating as it is fascinating to me, it's like design with all the logic stripped out so i don't get it half the time. Just do what you think is right? No matter how good the product, the brand comes first to most and that does worry me a bit. I hope we're into a kind of bike where brand is less of a concern though, touring and bikepacking is less fashion and more function? Agreed on the saddle loops ) I got a bag of clip-on ones as samples recently so I can attach one to my road bike. PM if you'd like to try a pair.
Chew, agreed, again. We're starting with road/audax (25-28C and deep-drops) and a more road/CX cross-over light tourer bike (I won't call it a gravel bike but..) as they're more known types and we have demand for them. It might be a slow burn thing, but so was the Genesis Equilibrium, a lot of people thought that was an odd bike at first. A few reviews do wonders if the product is up to it.
restlessnative, I know, for some that will kill it. Stuart's right on Saracen, there's the Skoda thing there, but part of the project is to remind Evans and customers that there was something before the chain of shops. I can't change Evans rep with some bikes though, I do see your point. What's suprised me is how into this the guys at the top of Evans are, it's largely why I joined. They ride, tour (our MD rode with us from the office to Eurobike at lake constance a few years ago) and they're pushing this project despite knowing it'll make 5-10% of what Pinnacle does.
Ianfitz, a lot there I agree 100% with and nothing I don't : ) well maybe the carbon fork but that's just me. The bottle cage mounts are something I've been faffing with in autocad - got an idea there. Will update later. There's a few of them!
Charliecres, I think the buzzard needs that DT for a long fork, but a rigid-specific can be a fair bit lighter if the fork is a fixed, shorter length. I think we have a way to go on the name/brand perception, but we'll see. This is all useful as I'm due to sit down with the marketing guys next week. TBH it's my biggest concern with all of this, but it always is. I like the fact we don't need to 'market' Pinnacle!
Stuart, thanks, agreed on the DT cables too.
FLV, Genesis was pretty much me to start with, with Toby Howes (25 years behind Ridgeback) helping me find my feet - especially in Taiwan. I had a very free rein there, up until the 2012 range was close to sign off and then I moved to Evans. The Fortitude proto was my last project. Albert's doing a top job there now, I've worked with him at Madison and at Evans. Interesting that it's not really seen as a Madison brand, Salsa was always a good reference point there, QBP own it but the bikes are no less brilliant for it. I hope we can do that again with FW Evans, it's different with the direct link but we'll see. The pressure is on the product I guess )
RoyAB, that's a really good point. The buyer of a Spa Cycles or Paul Hewitt probably wouldn't give Evans a second look? We do sell a fair number of Ridgeback and other steel tour/audax bikes so that gave me something to go on, but I think you're right. It won't be easy.
As a general point, the UK-made sample Steelite will be separate to Taiwan-made versions, we can be pretty competitive on RRP there, same relative VFM as Pinnacle, so I hope there will be 2 levels, UK-made staying close to FW Evans' roots (he was a designer and his bikes were made by others) as well as Taiwan-made as vfm there is unbeatable.
One q this raises, are we at Evans too attached to reviving FW Evans and some company history, is it better to just be 'new brand X' without any baggage and start fresh? Hypothetical Q really but interesting all the same.
I'd love to buy a Freddy Grubb or a Holdsworth or a Carlton, but would never buy an Evans, ridiculous really but my impression of the local Evans store ( and others that I've been in) means I'd never buy from them, I find the stores to be souless places, totally unreasonable I'm sure, but there you go.
Is it all possible to seperate your project from the stores ?, perhaps emphasise the FW Evans rather than Evans name ?, I get the heritage link but do wonder if its too submerged into the brand now ?
SteveM, it's not ridiculous, it's how it is. I see a really good bunch of people at work but it's hard to be consistent and do a good job in a big chain store. I see an advantage we had at Genesis / Madison and that was the independent dealers. Food for thought - it's not about product details yet. Very interesting replies. I appreciate the honesty from everyone too.
edit -
wonder if its too submerged into the brand now
Exactly that, I wonder too. That's not really my job as such, but it is in a way as we can't make bikes that bomb.
One q this raises, are we at Evans too attached to reviving FW Evans and some company history, is it better to just be 'new brand X' without any baggage and start fresh? Hypothetical Q really but interesting all the same.
When Toyota wanted a slice of the executive car market they launched Lexus ... as bikepackers we all know that all baggage no matter how light, still needs carrying
out of interest James, do the management do the secret shopper thing ?, it might be useful to them to understand why some have this perception of their stores, sounds from what you say the top guys are sound enough....
Stuart, I may use that as a quote if this point comes up next week.. )
Gairym, the blood of too many ex-LBS's attached, I hope not, I'm not sure. Good LBS's have no issue with a local Evans for all the reasons that some don't shop there, some riders just won't go to a chain-store. I think the bike trade is one of the last strongholds of the independent retailer and that's a really good thing but bigger multi-outlet stores do challenge the weaker ones. I've spoken to dealers when I was at Madison about Cycle Surgery or Evans opening near them, many said a local Evans was good, it drew in customers to the area who then often went to them : ) We do OK from new riders who are used to 'big name' shops but personally I see the point, I don't usually go to Costas if there's a local cafe nearby so maybe I'm a hypocrite.. but if the Costas has a particularly good cake then fair dues!
All part of the brand thing though, agreed.
Last edited by jameso on Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SteveM wrote:out of interest James, do the management do the secret shopper thing ?, it might be useful to them to understand why some have this perception of their stores, sounds from what you say the top guys are sound enough....
probably best if you dont answer this ;-)
No secrets or issues with that - the MD/CEO level management are very approachable and known people in the company so secret shopping isn't possible. I'm not speaking for Evans here, but I think the issues are mainly about staff retention, the best staff often move onto higher-paying or more specialist IBDs, or out of teh bike trade to make more money. Evans also employ people who may have good customer service and retail skills but not the bike knowledge (there needs to be a balance, some that are great with bikes aren't as commercial, people that are both are rarer) and people are very quick to criticise us on lack of product knowledge. To be fair, many middle age riders who're well into bikes, or anyone with 10,15 yrs plus on bikes will have more experience in many areas than a lot of shop staff. I've worked in a bike shop and other retailers so I know it's not an easy job..
edit as I should add that we get loads of great feedback about the store staff and I've been really impressed with them, but the bad stuff sticks when it's a big company/brand. Some of it's justified I'm sure, but maybe not all.
"When Toyota wanted a slice of the executive car market they launched Lexus "
Indeed they did and it's not an unusual strategy (used it myself for a bikeCo a few years back), but the difference with Lexus is that apart from spending massive £ to create the brand, Toyota had a pretty strong auto brand to begin with. Whatever they were in the '30's, Evans are now a bike shop 'chain' and, as many comments here evidence, the 'chain' word is death for niche brands.
That said, a great product can overcome, so here's to this being one! (... my first ' design feature suggestion' : 'not so waterproof' Evans stickers )
Yes, maybe a bit defensive there sorry. 29er 'packer aside, the 700C tourer with more integrated touring kit is something I'm really into at the moment. Difficult to re-create that constructeur style with OE spec but making everything fit together properly is worth the time.
RoyAB, removable decals isn't a bad idea at all - sorry not removable, 'replaceable'.
