I have been doing some reading on the potential benefits for ultra-endurance performance of the LCHF diet. The evidence is far from definitive, but there are some indications that an adapted person (and adaptation can take considerable time and effort), may be more efficient at burning fat for fuel, therefore decreasing dependancy on carbohydrates, that can cause gastric problems for some people. But, and it's a big one, how easy is it to maintain this regime whilst on-the-road for multiple days with very limited options for food (think Tour Divide, 'Gas Station diet')? I expect trying to maintain any kind of 'keto' state must be virtually impossible, adversely impacting the potential benefits of this diet.

The Metabolic Efficiency approach appears to be a bit more practical, a less full-on approach than LCHF, focussed on periodisation might be a better idea for preparing for a long trip, or perhaps just sticking to the traditional balanced diet is best, to avoid any adverse reactions to 'tour food' after eating a deliberately 'clean' or highly specific diet.

Anybody have any real world experience of this?

its Very definitive if you ask me 4yrs in and still loving it

I found this podcast useful on the subject. Zach Bitter is a very good runner (America 100 mile record holder running 7.01 minute miles) and the approach he advocates is more or less become fat adaptive in training and preparation then fuel using carbs during the actual events.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsO61ZsihQM

Fastest morning training rides and reducing carbs can support this.

Guys eating avocados on rides though... not convinced.

i do 99.9% of my rides completely Fasted

Scott L wrote: Guys eating avocados on rides though... not convinced.

I had a chat with Ashley Benns on his 4x Divide ride last year, he was shovelling in as much guacamole as he could buy and carry, so it was working for him.

That should say “only” avacados apologies.
My understanding is it takes a awhile for the body to convert fat to replenish muscle glycogen that’s depleted through increased effort such as through climbing. A bit of carbs is needed to do this quickly. Balanced diet for riding. High fat foods for big rides definitely a good idea to get the calories. Particularly for the ride you describe!

Pirahna wrote:

Scott L wrote: Guys eating avocados on rides though... not convinced.

I had a chat with Ashley Benns on his 4x Divide ride last year, he was shovelling in as much guacamole as he could buy and carry, so it was working for him.

ZeroDarkBivi wrote: 'keto'

Uh-oh...

it worked for me last year,could ride for 60 miles a day on 3 hard boiled eggs for breakfast then a gammon steak with more eggs and green veg for tea

take note of what lawman says

I think it's a fairly normal thing in ultra running
Carlos Dones I've heard interviewed on a couple of podcasts:
https://theketogenicathlete.com/episode ... arathoner/
Also, there's also Tim Noakes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Noakes

I've made up some coconut oil almond butter and chocolate bars which were pretty great. some of them and a pile of pre cooked bacon I was carrying would've got me a fair way into the cairngorms loop last year, had I not fallen off hurt my elbow and scratched :(
something like this is probably good: https://www.ketobrick.com/

I think you'll able to burn a lot of carbs, so will be able to be more flexible than normal keto macros would have you at, but I would definitely experiment with what actually works well under lots of sustained exercise.

Working for me and many at top levels of both strength and endurance sports

Just posted this about sami inkinens 8stage MTB race whilst keto on the coffee thread

http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/1555625 ... ance-using

Moder-dye wrote:Working for me and many at top levels of both strength and endurance sports

Just posted this about sami inkinens 8stage MTB race whilst keto on the coffee thread

http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/1555625 ... ance-using

See also Juliana Buhring for several years of lchf. There’s a section on her blog about it.

Lawmanmx wrote:its Very definitive if you ask me 4yrs in and still loving it

I was merely referring to the scientific research! Do you do multi-day rides in remote locations, and what do you eat then, when choices are limited? I couldn't fast for a week even if the alternative was junk food.

I listened to a Podcast with Tim Noakes recently, and can understand why he is such a polarising character; when people are so binary and messianic about something, it can come across as unbalanced opinion. It appears that a personal life changing event (diabetes diagnosis) completely reversed his opinion on diet, and made him reinterpret the research he had conducted to draw the opposite conclusion from the first time round. What he is preaching sounds great - everybody would like to reap those benefits - but just isn't supported by scientific evidence, and he seems to have this paranoia / conspiracy theory about the majority of the scientific community who don't support his view. The recent research from Stanford university, a big, well regarded experiment, concluded; "There was no significant difference in 12-month weight loss between the HLF and HLC diets, and neither genotype pattern nor baseline insulin secretion was associated with the dietary effects on weight loss."

I just think any diet that is extremely restrictive might work if you live a very controlled life, but could quickly fall apart when on tour in areas where fuelling options are limited.

Scott L wrote:become fat adaptive in training and preparation then fuel using carbs during the actual events.

This is a more appealing concept, which I could probably live with - similar to Bob Seebohar's idea. Quality nutrition, when it is achievable, then just go with the flow on-the-road. It's probably not so critical at my end of the peloton

Edit:
Just read that blog about the MTB stage race self-experiment; his approach is also very much aligned to the Seebohar Metabolic Efficiency concept - he even uses his UCAN 'super-starch' supplement. A lot more carbs than Tim Noakes would allow!

An important point about that Stanford research, it very much wasn't a "normal" diet vs LCHF, it was a high carb diet vs a slightly lower carb diet.
30% carbs, 23% protein, and 45% fat definitely isn't LCHF.
Numbers from here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29466592

ZeroDarkBivi wrote:

Lawmanmx wrote:its Very definitive if you ask me 4yrs in and still loving it

I was merely referring to the scientific research! Do you do multi-day rides in remote locations, and what do you eat then, when choices are limited? I couldn't fast for a week even if the alternative was junk food.

take a bottle of advocado or hemp oil and coconut oil with coffee or tea is good to start your day, eat eggs cheese any beef lamb chicken fish butter green veg advocado and nuts ... plenty to go at there, ive only done 4 day fasts up to now (thats Zero food) and the most multi day rides have been 4 or less, no bad effects here

About 8 months ago I decided to avoid eating anything with added sugar and caffeine mostly because I was struggling with energy levels and falling asleep pretty much every day at my desk. I wanted to see if cleaning up my diet would make a difference. For the first couple of months I could barely ride my bike for half an hour without bonking, I just wasn't replacing the lost sugar calories with enough proper food and also my body was struggling to adapt to utilize fat for energy.
I started learning a bit more about this whole LCHF business and just eating heaps more fat and protein, then gradually it got better and I was back to riding for similar intensity and duration as before. The main difference being I felt like there was a speed limiter on my legs and if I went over a certain intensity I would start to feel heavy and slow, but if I kept the intensity at a moderate endurance pace then I could ride for hours with very little food. But yes I certainly wonder how you can keep this up on long multi-day rides. I found that the only decent food I could eat was whatever I prepared for myself at home. On the recent Audax Oppy that we have here in Australia, its a 24 hour team time trial, I was a bit nervous about what I was going to eat and how my body would react. I found that eating even a moderate amount of carbs during this 24 hour period had my guts all twisted in knots and all sorts of gastric discomfort. So the months of disciplined eating prior to that may have helped with conditioning my body to burn fat fuel more efficiently but it certainly had an adverse effect when I really needed my body to work.
The long term discipline is hard. I would be interested in focusing in on diet more when preparing for a big event, but keep a more relaxed and normal balanced diet the rest of the time so you don't feel like a complete monk! So few vices left as it is when you turn 40.

I definetly see Sami Inkinen's approach as a more sensible one for events; targeted carbs for either races or when you know you are going to be doing challenging events like multiday rides where its hilly and you're carrying load.

I'm pretty strict at home, almost carnivore at times, but on a trip for practicality reasons have to be more relaxed. It's hard to cook a rib eye steak in your Ti mug

Also in that situation, and in general when you're actually riding a decent amount the carbs aren't a bad thing metabolically as they're use directly along with your endogenous fat to support higher effort. When you're not doing the exercise you definitely don't need them and benefit from not having them.

It took me a couple of months to not notice the difference riding.

As for studies there are a good few. Some to do with medical ketosis, some nutritional. I guess sports related the FASTER study with Zac Bitter is the high profile one now with plenty on the WWW about it.

Also on the science front, there's little benefit for drug companies and food companies in telling you you don't need to eat xyz and be the better for it, so less scientific/clinical research is done. And (with a tin foil hat on) research that doesn't suit the companies goals just gets dumped, not published.

One thing I'd say is that there seems to be an over emphasis on high fat. Its the low carbs that are important (and that's an individually related figure really) followed by adequate protein (0.8g per lb of Kean body mass is often quoted) and then really whatever fats come along with your food, plus I'll have full fat milk or cream in tea/coffee. But if you don't manage your macros to ensure you're eating enough you'll certainly feel crap and lacking in energy.

In the news today...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44368601

Moder-dye wrote:In the news today...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44368601

Somewhat ironically, I read that article while munching on an illicit krispy kreme donut that a co-worker gave me