as it's very hard to change your life, particularly when it's something that could things more difficult, when you watch others with far greater impact happily pissing it all up the wall.

Agreed. Also I think it makes a difference when you do start to change. I notice someone's view of those who do 'piss it up the wall' changes in proportion to what they're compromising on and losing out on, or the efforts made themselves. There's a risk of being like that annoying recent ex-smoker who's suddenly the most anti you'll meet, in that once someone makes the change they're suddenly 'in the right' and become evangelical. But it's fuel for the cause if you can direct it well. Probably also a risk of polarisation there which isn't productive, I suppose what I'm getting at is e.g. through not wanting to fly for personal reasons which is a choice that compromises my riding scope, I think that compromise is devalued if I don't also think about other choices I have in life or how I spend my money, vote, etc.

But to use a specific example, I've spent 20 odd years, with a few like minded individuals, doing some fairly low key woodland management in two locations in Scotland. In terms of transforming the whole place into a species rich, biodiverse landscape (rainforest no less) we are back to the deckchair on the titanic, but it's nice knowing that you are making one small part a good place.

The trick is convincing everyone else that it's fun - instead of flying abroad to spend a week lying on a beach, spend a week locally chopping down trees and burning them (there is more too it than that) with much quaffing of fine ale to celebrate each day. I mean I know what I'd rather do....

to that

jameso wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 12:01 pm It's on all of us.
We can make a case for blame-shifting like this but until we vote and spend with these considerations as a priority you can be 100% sure nothing will change. Politics and capitalism would love us all to do nothing or wait for top-down influence, it suits them fine.

Agree entirely. Governments and corporations may or may not make changes, but what you do will affect them - so do it. "No point as China has a million new coal power stations" - yawn. Actually China seem pretty well on the case with moving away from carbon for example so this "excuse" no longer holds water, if it ever did.

TLS. And while you're at it BLS, DLS, ELS, CLS, WLS too.

Out of interest do people go I wont stick to the speed limit as x has a faster car, drives more dangerously and is not slowing down?
I use the disabled parking at supermarkets as everyone else does?
Do we drop litter in the countryside, make fires and leave a trace as plenty of other do so our efforts are not a cure?
We tend to not base our behaviour on the biggest arseholes in society.
Zealots may not help but asking people politely to change, whilst explaining why, has not r+been successful either

Well reading this has changed our holiday plans. The 5 of us are now getting the ferry to Amsterdam, on bikes, and doing a leisurely 250Km loop using eco rated hostels and BnB's. We'll buy local etc and hope the kids don't hate it too much
It was always an option to be honest, but this was a timely reminder. My hope is that it will be a favourite holiday with the young guns and they'll continue to do similar.Cheers.

Totally ruined by the fact that we're flying to Fuerte Ventura at Easter. Hypocrite.......

box wrote: 5 of us are now getting the ferry to Amsterdam, on bikes, and doing a leisurely 250Km loop using eco rated hostels and BnB's. We'll buy local etc

If I was a kid (still am) I know which adventure I'd prefer. Not the flying one . Generally kids love it if they're active, totally involved in the travel decisions (on a bike they will be), free to roam on the boat/train, travelling slowly so they can absorb all the new experiences etc. Ours did certainly. Just gotta look at the smiling faces in photos posted on Here when parents take their kids bivvying .

"cheap flight weekend" - the least appealing three words in my lexicon .

boxelder wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 2:38 pm Well reading this has changed our holiday plans. The 5 of us are now getting the ferry to Amsterdam, on bikes, and doing a leisurely 250Km loop using eco rated hostels and BnB's. We'll buy local etc and hope the kids don't hate it too much
It was always an option to be honest, but this was a timely reminder. My hope is that it will be a favourite holiday with the young guns and they'll continue to do similar.Cheers.

Totally ruined by the fact that we're flying to Fuerte Ventura at Easter. Hypocrite.......

Cycling in the Netherlands is a joyous experience. Helen and I used to go gigpacking to see the Toy Dolls every year in the Netherlands. Must get back on it

I'm planning the same thing. Pick an appealing gig in Amsterdam, head to Harwich, cycle to Amsterdam, have a couple of days cycling around the city, see the sites, see the gig and cycle back to the ferry. Don't know when it'll be, but hopefully this year

It's funny isn't it - everytime I speak to normal people about their holidays, they mostly talk about the flights - how easy / how much hassle / how cheap / expensive, how much bouncing the aircraft did when it landed; followed by "Oh and the beach was nice".

I have a massively stressful job (not that stressful, but you know) My holidays mainly involve strapping some stuff on the bike, getting on it and riding away from the house on a back road. OK the weather might be a bit iffy, I may end up getting eaten alive by a swarm of midges, but a) I don't have to queue, b) I don't have to get touched up by a stern person in a uniform, in full view of the security queue, c) I don't have to sit in a seat designed for a person much smaller than me...etc.etc. and d) it's dirt cheap.

And people say I'm weird....

"Oh so you don't fly 'cos you are one of those eco warriors?"
"No I don't fly 'cos it's sh*t"

So true.. a few trips by ferry or train and you wonder why tagging such a hassle of an experience inc the likelihood of bike loss or damage onto each the end of the trip was so normal.
Compare that to rolling onto a ferry or the European Bike Express coach..

Dave wrote: Cycling in the Netherlands is a joyous experience. Helen and I used to go gigpacking to see the Toy Dolls every year in the Netherlands. Must get back on it

Rapideye wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:14 pm I'm planning the same thing. Pick an appealing gig in Amsterdam, head to Harwich, cycle to Amsterdam, have a couple of days cycling around the city, see the sites, see the gig and cycle back to the ferry. Don't know when it'll be, but hopefully this year

You don't even need to go that far to gigpack (RegTM ) - you're very welcome to join me on my March BaM, which will be gigpacking to see Sex Pistols Expose in Stoke on Trent.

Stoke - the Amsterdam of the Midlands

jameso wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:19 am So true.. a few trips by ferry or train and you wonder why tagging such a hassle of an experience inc the likelihood of bike loss or damage onto each the end of the trip was so normal.
Compare that to rolling onto a ferry or the European Bike Express coach..

£100 return flight to Europe with bike (if timing it right)
£300 return train journey within the UK with bike reservations that often don't work, multiple train changes, and frequent train strikes to make it all more stressful.

That's why :)

^ yeah.. If anyone in a position of influence is serious about changing travel habits they need to look at balancing the costs somehow.

Flights aren't exactly reliable either so I'd have flying Vs European trains as similar risk of disruption but the price difference is hard to ignore. I look at it Vs the cost of my bike or what I could be spending on kit and often don't bother with buying because I don't really need it. A £280 return ticket with EBE (ouch, just checked and it's £370 return to S of France. £214 for a lift home after riding there's not bad though) or £250 in ferries + trains for my Alps ride last year can be a pleasure and part of the journey. Your mileage may vary as they say... Maybe I'm just a tourer not a route-bagging bikepacker

I think all long distance travel has the potential be be both costly and stressful if the stars don't align. In truth, we perhaps need to be encouraging more of this ...

fatbikephil wrote: ↑Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:52 pm ,b) I don't have to get touched up by a stern person in a uniform

Some folks will pay good money for this.

I dont think we have any Tory MPs on here


Doing NAWE this weekend so straight out my door for me this Weekend

Ultimately we all (try to) justify our own actions.

Of course that means airlines also try to portray themselves as "green" by saying "flying is only X kg of CO2 per mile" and is thus comparable to, for example, train journeys. This somewhat sidesteps the fact that a typical flight is much, much further than a typical train journey - I don't see many trans-atlantic train services advertised as a somewhat facile example.

I suppose most people just want to spend as much time at their location as possible so a full day or possibly two at either end of their week/fortnight is going to seriously bite into their beach lounging/getting smashed time or having to humour kids for two days in transit instead of a couple of hours. We're looking at Scandinavia and avoiding flying is quite hard work since there are now no ferries between the UK and Scandinavia so it's ferry to Holland and train from there. I don't believe the cost is too dissimilar to flying (with a bike and associated kit).

You used to be able to get to Iceland by ferry as the Danish ferry used call at Shetland(?) but no longer does so. Now to get there you'd have to get to Copenhagen first. You can see why people fly

My cousin and her husband don't fly at all and have been to most european countries - but he's frightened of flying so it becomes Hobson's Choice.