Trespassers will be persecuted

[RIP]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45479975

'make deliberate trespass a criminal offence'.

Ignoring the subject of the article, if that ever comes off, that'll be that then for us unobtrusive LNT sleepers.

[RIP]

Just noticed my MP raising his flag there!

[RIP]

Thinking further... squatters would find the heat turned up too... oh, and camper van fans will need to be considering their options more carefully....

[Bearbonesnorm]

I imagine this is a way for 'the powers' to curb the activities of travellers. Even if it does come to pass, I can't see that many land owners or the courts would / could be bothered to persue a bloke in a bivvy bag. However, it might actually help keep the wild camping nob element under control a little better?

As with most laws, I tend to figure that they're someone elses and not mine and that it's a shame that laws need to be passed in order to protect to majority from the stupid minority. Remember when I said we were heading down the 'outlaw biker' route

[benp1]

I saw that on STW and was slightly concerned

But it's clearly aimed at the traveller community. If someone sees someone with a bivy bag and/or tarp set up in their field it seems far less intimidating, concerning and would hopefully result in a sensible discussion

Tarp/bivi seems far less concerning than a tent too for some reason

[Bearbonesnorm]

Tarp/bivi seems far less concerning than a tent too for some reason

I always think that a tent adds an air of permanence, where a tarp and bivvy and especially just a bivvy, somehow conveys a 'moving on' message.

[middleagedmadness]

I look at as no pegs in the ground I'm not camping so in my little head I'm just taking a rest ,not sure how this will play out if I ever get confronted mind

[RIP]

"'outlaw biker'" - very happy to step up as "Little John" to your "Robin Hood" if push came to shove .

Yes, realistically, I'm sure reasonable discussions could still be had with land "owners" by us rats-in-the-wainscotting but it's another turn of the screw by The Man.

"no pegs in the ground". Absolutely. We've had all these discussions many times of course (all good fun), but one thing I'm interested in is why the hour of the day makes any difference - sleep on a verge for a few/many hours in daylight and as you say MaM people just think "ah bless, (s)he's just having a nice snooze", but all of a sudden just because it's gone dark we've suddenly turned into "campers". And now possibly criminal ones at that.

Magna Carta? Hah.

[benp1]

As long as the normal discretion is applied then I'm happy. The carnage in a local communirty/area that un-neighbourly travellers can unleash isn't nice

[RIP]

Personally still keeping clear of the original subjects of the article (ahem), trouble is Ben that "discretion" now includes the (however remote) option of criminalising rather than a civil offence.... the fact that it would be in the background of any interactions would change the situation for me. I'd feel more uncomfortable. And in fact with another law on their side any land "owner" would have the right to make me feel more uncomfortable, more than the current situation of "I wonder if you'd mind moving along please", "yes ok, thank you for politely asking me, no hard feelings".

[benp1]

Personally still keeping clear of the original subjects of the article (ahem), trouble is Ben that "discretion" now includes the (however remote) option of criminalising rather than a civil offence.... the fact that it would be in the background of any interactions would change the situation for me.

Yes Reg, that's true, and a very fair challenge. To be honest, I would also see it in the background, but I'm desperately hoping that common sense would prevail. Like you say, if you were to bivi somewhere particularly cheeky unintentionally (i.e. it's dark, and you've bivvied in the grounds of a fancy house) then it would be a very unhelpful undertone

[Bearbonesnorm]

I wonder if the jersey people do a line of green tights?

Trouble with passing laws, is that most law abiding folk follow them, those not so bothered and who the laws are generally aimed at, tend to carry on regardless. The more laws we have, the more criminals we have although behaviour hasn't altered ... there's very little chance of any positive changes taking place, law or not.

[BigdummySteve]

All I can say is remember thatcher, her laws have since been applied in the fashion we feared.

[RIP]

Hi Steve, "fashion" - is that the 'green tights' one that Stu's referring to?

[Zippy]

Trouble with passing laws, is that most law abiding folk follow them, those not so bothered and who the laws are generally aimed at, tend to carry on regardless. The more laws we have, the more criminals we have although behaviour hasn't altered ... there's very little chance of any positive changes taking place, law or not.

Ever since burglary got outlawed, crime rates have soared!

[Bearbonesnorm]

Ever since burglary got outlawed, crime rates have soared!

Yeah but making it illegal hasn't stopped it happening has it?

[rufus748]

Even when "illegal" and a criminal offence rather than a civil offence it won't change the outcome or enforcement with regards to travellers who it is clearly aimed at.
Councils have a statutory responsibility to provide sites for travellers moving through their area (in addition to the permanent sites many councils provide).
Many (most) councils don't do this undoubtedly cost cutting and 'nimbyism' from residents.
A number of factors have to be present for police to move them on under current legislation and it's still very difficult then when those factors are present, not forgetting they are being moved on from an area when the council have failed in their lawful responsibility to provide them with a site. Talk about a politically hot potato!
However the mess they make and the crime wave that follows (most) of them is inexcusable.
The resources needed to move them on (by force which is what legislation would allow) is prohibitive to every police force in the country given current demands and budget restrictions.
I think to be a traveller, a gypsy, a four wheel tramp is a fantastic lifestyle. Little different to what many of us aspire to be albeit on two wheels.
Unfortunately many of them fund their lifestyles through crime spoiling it for the rest of the genuine traveling society.
It's another poorly thought it piece of legislation by government so they can door their shoulders and say "we gave the police the powers"
I don't think anyone will bother with enforcing it especially with the likes of wild campers.

[Oli.vert]

^ ^ What Rufus said - unlikely to be used that much or that easily on the intended. Far easier to use maliciously on less resource demanding subjects.....

Personally I tend to assume permission would be granted if asked, and to be polite and agreeable if that permission is subsequently refused, and I would hope this legislation were never to be used on any of us - but I'd far rather it were not enacted. Letters to MPs anyone?

[rufus748]

^ ^ What Rufus said - unlikely to be used that much or that easily on the intended. Far easier to use maliciously on less resource demanding subjects.....

Personally I tend to assume permission would be granted if asked, and to be polite and agreeable if that permission is subsequently refused, and I would hope this legislation were never to be used on any of us - but I'd far rather it were not enacted. Letters to MPs anyone?

It's the MP's who are pushing it. Hundreds of residents complaining to them every time there's an encampment, they don't want that, they might not get re-elected! Better they used their 'authority' to get the permanent sites set up, but again they won't, voters don't want that either.

[middleagedmadness]

Got 3 permanent halting sites within 5 miles of my house ,been there since I was a nipper never any issues, the issues start when the travellers from Limerick and other parts of Ireland arrive as many of them are refused entry to the halting sites as there known to be slieving thieving b@stards so they just find any spot and leave sh@te all over the place,what has to beared in mind is the halting sites are not council property and are owned by a few families so they as much as the rest of us don't want the bad ones near them ,the council needs to provide scrap ground as a temporary halting site and if it's left a sh@t hole next time they are on there is roll the boulders in So they can't leave till it's been cleaned ,you may think I'm thinking pie in the sky here but it worked in darndale on Dublin's Northside ,they rolled in one night only to find they couldn't leave the next morning,once the site was spotless the JCB rolled in to remove the boulders

[Jamesh]

Like others would like to think some common sense would be applied, but generally don't think this would filter down to the realms of bike tramping et al. Who knows? But who would have the time/effort to follow that up. For me the leave no trace aspect is key, as sadly larger traveller sites don't play by these rules.
I doubt whether these would alter much. I imagine these communities will live the way they historically have regardless of its new legal status. I'd rather see councils provide the provisions for these communities (more gov funding, angry tax payers and nimbys just bite the bullet) as it seems a toss up between this or continually forking out for site relocation/clean up.
From personal and known experiences always felt it best to have these communities on side

[BigdummySteve]

Although we tend to think of these laws in ways which might affect ourselves and the things that we do there is a greater picture.
I wager that most of the people who protested against were not the ravers and hippies who it was aimed at but ordinary folk who realised the implications of the bill.

Interesting article in The Guardian here
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... l-protests

The most worrying aspect of this is not the fact the kipping in a field would now be a criminal act but that just being somewhere would could leave you open to prosecution.

It’s not a law we should idly sit by and allow, it’s too open to abuse.

[Lazarus]

most of us here would prefer Scottish type access rules and it is worrying that simply riding a bike or camping somewhere can lead to a criminal conviction. perhaps we can get them to specify with motorised vehicles or caravans or some such seeing as they wish to target the travelling community
As noted above they are poorly served and locally we have had a site identified for their use for about a decade but the locals there [ it is ruralish and posh] wont agree to it so it has never gone ahead - MP was against it as well as was the local Councillor. We do not have a problem with travellers locally and they need to be supported not criminalised.

Not that it matters but i was on the march linked to.

[ctznsmith]

The most worrying aspect of this is not the fact the kipping in a field would now be a criminal act but that just being somewhere would could leave you open to prosecution.

Especially as there are large areas that we think of as 'public' which aren't. Shopping centres and retail parks, University campuses all spring to mind but I'm sure there are others.

Possibly best to protest this law before it stops you protesting.

(An example that springs to mind is protest last year at ULU where students occupied part of the building. Easier to disolve if you just nick everyone for trespass.)

[johnb]

"Mr Selous and Mr Francois were among those arguing for the government to emulate Ireland, which in 2002 made deliberate trespass a criminal offence.

The knock-on effect of this change has been that more travellers have arrived in England from Ireland, as "we are regarded as something of a soft touch", Mr Francois added."


Looks good to me. Some travellers won't use an authorised location anyway. And my god do they make a mess. Legally the person who owns the land is required to clean up. Fly tipping on a farmers land (or anyone elses) requires the owner to clean up.
The law, if in acted, may just be for motorised vehicle's. This also maybe used against the off roaders who destroy bridle paths etc. Staggering the damage they do. One bridle path I use to cycle down in the dark is now impassable in day light.