Trespassers will be persecuted

[johnb]

All I can say is remember thatcher, her laws have since been applied in the fashion we feared.

Example?

[Lazarus]

The law, if in acted, may just be for motorised vehicle's. This also maybe used against the off roaders who destroy bridle paths etc.

Or it may just used against everyone and target us for the damage we do to footpaths and on private land when we camp.

I am not sure why you think they wont use a broad brush to protect land interests

I am also not comfortable with targeting other users
yes I dont like MXers on bridleways and sometime green laners are a pain but walkers say the same about me as I trespass on footpaths - which of course I think i do with respect and tolerance and they disagree.
One persons freedom is anothers abuse and we need to strike a balance
Criminalise trespass is not the right approach to get this balance right and it wont just be used against those " we" object to it will be used against us

[johnb]

The law, if in acted, may just be for motorised vehicle's. This also maybe used against the off roaders who destroy bridle paths etc.

Or it may just used against everyone and target us for the damage we do to footpaths and on private land when we camp.

I am not sure why you think they wont use a broad brush to protect land interests

I am also not comfortable with targeting other users
yes I dont like MXers on bridleways and sometime green laners are a pain but walkers say the same about me as I trespass on footpaths - which of course I think i do with respect and tolerance and they disagree.
One persons freedom is anothers abuse and we need to strike a balance
Criminalise trespass is not the right approach to get this balance right and it wont just be used against those " we" object to it will be used against us

The present law;-

"Trespass to land involves the "unjustifiable interference with land which is in the immediate and exclusive possession of another";[6] it is both a tort and, in certain circumstances, a crime under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994. It is not necessary to prove that harm was suffered to bring a claim, and is instead actionable per se. While most trespasses to land are intentional, the courts have decided that it could also be committed negligently. Accidental trespass also incurs liability"

[johnb]

PS green laners are not pain, they destroy bridlepaths to the extent that walkers struggle to use them. Cyclist struggle even more and horse riders cannot use them. That is more than just a pain.

[sean_iow]

Just for ballance, Green Laners don't drive on bridleways they drive on byways. Over here all the unsurfaced byways are subject to seasonal TROs to protect them from damage in the winter when the ground is wet, it works well and is observed by the responsible users. Irresponsible users don't care what they do or where they go for that matter and will drive anywhere but then it's up to the police to sort out and they have adequate powers to do so, if not adequate resources.

In the winter the overuse of the bridleways by horses makes them impassable by anything other than a horse and they become a churned up knee deep clayey mess you can't even push or carry a bike through. There doesn't seem to be any powers for the local authority to stop this. They also do considerable damage to the byways which are closed to vehicles.

Blaming/legislating against the responsible users for damage caused by idiots isn't going help. The idiots don't obey the existing laws. I've seen plenty of sofas fly tipped on byways. The easy way to stop this is to ban the sale of sofas? But this would punish the responsible users who just sit on theirs indoors, the idiots would still buy them illegally and dump them in the countryside when they're finished with them.

[Lazarus]

as my post is above yours it really not necessary to quote it all to reply
From what i can tell the change is from trespass may be an offence to is an offence. It would have been better to use other words in my statement- to my knowledge a bike packer has never been done currently so it is criminalising what we do and it makes more sense to discuss this as that is what the thread s about.
what you say about them on BW is still what walkers say about us on footpaths.

oh and i have never seen a green laner anywhere other than where they could legally be i just meant they can be a pain as we share space, they are noisy etc , live and let live.

[johnb]

Yes they do drive on bridleways. What you should have said was they shouldn't drive on bridleways. I have seen a dozen one behind the other doing exactly that. I know of two which are impassible to horse riders, without putting the horse at risk.
I don't believe that horse riders ever destroy bridleways.
A there is not enough horse riders to achieve that.
B they are 4 legged they are simply walking. A car, motor cyclists and cyclist have there wheels in contact with the ground at all times digging into the ground with there tyres. A horse never does that its Hooves are not in contact with ground enough.

[sean_iow]

I don't believe that horse riders ever destroy bridleways.
A there is not enough horse riders to achieve that.
B they are 4 legged they are simply walking. A car, motor cyclists and cyclist have there wheels in contact with the ground at all times digging into the ground with there tyres. A horse never does that its Hooves are not in contact with ground enough.

I could explain the science behind how horses do so much damage, but can't be bothered to type it on my phone, but the science was explained to me by an ecologist who was also explaining how tracked vehicles do more damage to the right /wrong soils than wheeled vehicles, I was the engineer on a cross-country pipeline site at the time.

As for horses not doing damage, there are bridleways here which it is impossible to get a vehicle onto due to the width of the gates. Come over in January and I'll gladly show you them, don't bother bringing a bike it will be of no use, wellies might help but expect to spend plenty of time trying to extract them from the quagmire.

Perhaps you don't have as many horses there? Near my house there is a bridleway near 2 stables and I'd estimate that 20 to 30 horses use the same bridleway 3 or 4 times a week. Its a sea of 10 in deep overlapping holes from fence to fence.

[ScotRoutes]

Horses destroy more paths up here than any other trail user (though we don't have legal access for motorbikes unless by permission of the landowner).

Motorbikes are restricted to a tiny fraction of the paths and tracks available to other users in Englandandwales, but I guess some folk would like to see a total ban as per Scotland.

[Bearbonesnorm]

It's not horses, motorbikes, 4x4 or pushbikes that destroy tracks .... it's people.

I don't think it's possible to say which users do the greatest harm with any clarity because it varies so much region to region. Motorbikes can be a problem round here but as already mentioned, they tend to be illegal users who don't care where they ride and with no understanding of the damage they might cause. However, the users that cause the most damage to tracks (regardless of their status but inc' RoW) are farmers and the forestery. Here, cattle cause much more damage than horses and quads more than recreational 4x4 use.

[sean_iow]

farmers and the forestery.

I'd forgotten about them. One year the forestry machines left ruts deep enough that when you rode through them it wasn't your pedals that caught on the sides, it was you bars rubbing on the ground next to them! It was a section of 'cheeky' trail we used as a short cut out of the woods so can't really complain. I'd of liked to have seen the size of the machine that made them. I'd say it was hydraulic powered with wheel motors so the portal axles then give the required ground clearance in the middle to make a 2 foot+ deep rut

[RIP]

Various interesting replies, but just to gently bring it back to the original point: if trespass becomes a blanket criminal offence rather than civil, then whether or not a land "owner" is minded to take advantage of that opportunity when they come across me and my little tarp and 22g stove, I will still have that cloud hanging over me ALL THE TIME. As BDS has pointed out, any of us could even be potentially trespassing simply by standing somewhere! It's one the most depressing things I've read for ages. In fact I haven't currently got the strength to think about it any more, so I'm going to ignore it and hope it goes away. Pathetic I know but there we go. Give us a call when you need some troops to storm parliament when the law gets debated.

[ScotRoutes]

Various interesting replies, but just to gently bring it back to the original point: if trespass becomes a blanket criminal offence rather than civil, then whether or not a land "owner" is minded to take advantage of that opportunity when they come across me and my little tarp and 22g stove, I will still have that cloud hanging over me ALL THE TIME. As BDS has pointed out, any of us could even be potentially trespassing simply by standing somewhere!

As I've said previously, this is one of the factors that puts me off riding south of the border.

[Richard G]

I'd forgotten about them. One year the forestry machines left ruts deep enough that when you rode through them it wasn't your pedals that caught on the sides, it was you bars rubbing on the ground next to them!

There was a section of last year's BB200 a lot like that.

[sean_iow]

Various interesting replies, but just to gently bring it back to the original point.

Sorry for the tangent, but the point I was trying to make is that the existing issues which were being highlighted don't require any new legislation to address them. A change in the law to make trespass illegal is a worry for me as well. And as I think has been said, there are existing laws which could be used to address any issues with travellers. If these are not being used now to solve the problems then it's doubfull and new powers would be but it would be additional legislation which could be miss-used against us

[RIP]

Wasn't intended as a heckle Sean, sorry . Just ignore me, I'm Marvin today - "I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed". Although the bamboo T's have cheered me up a bit thanks Stu .

[sean_iow]

Wasn't intended as a heckle Sean, sorry . Just ignore me, I'm Marvin today - "I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed". Although the bamboo T's have cheered me up a bit thanks Stu .

That's not a heckle, you should have heard the (hopefully meant in a joking way) abuse I got at the racing at SSUK, I think my visible effort put me into the 'try hard' category which is met with a barrage of 'looser' when you get illiminated in the final

[Lazarus]

this is one of the factors that puts me off riding south of the border.

every cloud eh

[ScotRoutes]

this is one of the factors that puts me off riding south of the border.

every cloud eh

True. I'll just have to suffer up here

[macinblack]

Various interesting replies, but just to gently bring it back to the original point: if trespass becomes a blanket criminal offence rather than civil, then whether or not a land "owner" is minded to take advantage of that opportunity when they come across me and my little tarp and 22g stove, I will still have that cloud hanging over me ALL THE TIME. As BDS has pointed out, any of us could even be potentially trespassing simply by standing somewhere! It's one the most depressing things I've read for ages. In fact I haven't currently got the strength to think about it any more, so I'm going to ignore it and hope it goes away. Pathetic I know but there we go. Give us a call when you need some troops to storm parliament when the law gets debated.

Don't worry Reg - If you get discovered, by the time the BiB arrive you'll be long gone , no doubt warming your cockles deep in some comely landlady's snug, so to speak.

[RIP]

Now that, Mac, is the sort of reply I like! Thank you. The imagery it brings up is quite divertingly arresting (certainly a lot more amusing than the arrests we've been talking about!). If it was Friday I'd almost be cheery again .

(Blimey, lotta people in Here tonight - telly must be even more crap than usual!)

[BigdummySteve]

Just ignore me, I'm Marvin today - "I think you ought to know I'm feeling very depressed".

“ The first ten million years were the worst. And the second ten million: they were the worst, too. The third ten million I didn’t enjoy at all. After that, I went into a bit of a decline. ”