Saving weight (and money?)

[Asposium]

Mobile phones, plus cable
Garmin inReach, plus cable
Garmin GPS, plus spare batteries, plus charger, plus cable
Canon compact camera, (same cable as inReach)
Battery packs (one plus spare)
Mains charger (if on a long "tour")

Genuinely interested to know what that lot weighs. Wouldn't be surprised if it were more than my shelter or sleeping 'set-up'.

What I had in Iceland last year, and will take on Le Jog in May.

Will add weights later, have on a spreadsheet.

[psling]

Matt, one thing to bear in mind is that you're a big lad like me. It means all our kit is bigger - long sleeping bag/quilt, long mat, long bivy etc

It's a combination of more weight and more pack size. It's not a game changer, but it does make a small difference

I think that's a valid point; also applies to clothing as well as kit, it can all add a few grams (as well as the extra weight already being carried when you're 6ft and 200lbs plus !! )

For me, as I'm getting older, and not being a racer, comfort is getting more important and I'm prepared to carry a few extra grams to indulge myself.

A lot of it comes down to personal preference and I guess that is why it's so difficult to advise a single comprehensive answer of what luggage, kit, etc., is required to a person starting out in bikepacking. We have to make a few mistakes along the way to get our kit right (or as near right as possible until the next new thing comes along!). I think my advise would be to get what you require at a price you can afford and build up better and lighter bits along the way AFTER you've had a chance to get out there and learn what you personally need to improve your experience. We often want what we don't really need - but then maybe that's part of the fun too

[sean_iow]

Slightly off topic, Bob, what shoes did you wear on the HT550? I assume you use SPD looking at the pedals. I think my normal shoes might not be suited the amount of pushing/ground conditions.

Back on topic. The dynamo v's battery does depend on the time of year and amount of time you plan to ride in the dark. I only use my dynamo to power my lights. Last November I did a 3 day ride and I estimate that I needed the lights for 6+ hours a day so lets say 20 hours total. The Revo is 800 lumen at full and 400 at lower speeds so we'll say an average of 600 lumen. Current price on the Exposure website is £399 for light and hub. They weigh 530g for both, but I'll deduct 180g from this which is the weight of a Hope Pro 4 front hub which is what I'd have if the dynamo wasn't there, so the weight for the light is 350g. There is also a saving of another £65 as I didn'd have to buy a front hub.

For £374 I could get a MaXx D mk 10, 2500 lumen for 2 hours, As the output/run time are proportional that equates to 600 lumen for 8 hours 20 mins. The light weighs 310g.

On my November trip I only stopped at a cafes for 20 minutes and only twice so not enough time to recharge a light. So for the same light output/duration I'd of needed to take 3MaXx D's which weigh 930g and would cost £1122.

In this case the dynamo light wins hands down (in my opinion) but... if it was say the HT550 which is in May, then assuming you stop for say 4 to 5 hours a night there will only be about 2 hours of darkness a day. So a single battery light would get you round without a charge. In the summer on a relaxed trip there would be no need for lights at all except perhaps some small F/R to make sure you're seen on the road in bad weather.

[whitestone]

They were Shimano MT54s, emphasis on "were", the soles were starting to delaminate and they gave up the ghost after the Cairngorms Loop in September. Not a bad shoe really. Can't find them locally now so looking for something new.

Your comments about the HT550 are about right IMO. I took a fully charged Exposure Joystick. I had set it to programme #3 which has the longest run times. For three nights I rode a couple of hours and also had the setup/take down of the bivy. (One night I stopped at the OBH bothy so didn't use the light that night) All this was on the lowest setting which at HT550 speeds is just about enough. The last night I rode through. The light was mostly on the lowest setting but for some of the rougher sections between Ft William and Kinlochleven I used the middle setting. There was still over 50% of charge left by the finish if the charge indicator on the light is correct.

[Richard G]

I can't seem to get my Diablo to last any sort of time at all. I test it off the bike and it seems fine, but on the bike... all bets are off (probably my imagination).

[Asposium]

Slightly off topic, Bob, what shoes did you wear on the HT550? I assume you use SPD looking at the pedals. I think my normal shoes might not be suited the amount of pushing/ground conditions.

Back on topic. The dynamo v's battery does depend on the time of year and amount of time you plan to ride in the dark. I only use my dynamo to power my lights. Last November I did a 3 day ride and I estimate that I needed the lights for 6+ hours a day so lets say 20 hours total. The Revo is 800 lumen at full and 400 at lower speeds so we'll say an average of 600 lumen. Current price on the Exposure website is £399 for light and hub. They weigh 530g for both, but I'll deduct 180g from this which is the weight of a Hope Pro 4 front hub which is what I'd have if the dynamo wasn't there, so the weight for the light is 350g. There is also a saving of another £65 as I didn'd have to buy a front hub.

For £374 I could get a MaXx D mk 10, 2500 lumen for 2 hours, As the output/run time are proportional that equates to 600 lumen for 8 hours 20 mins. The light weighs 310g.

On my November trip I only stopped at a cafes for 20 minutes and only twice so not enough time to recharge a light. So for the same light output/duration I'd of needed to take 3MaXx D's which weigh 930g and would cost £1122.

In this case the dynamo light wins hands down (in my opinion) but... if it was say the HT550 which is in May, then assuming you stop for say 4 to 5 hours a night there will only be about 2 hours of darkness a day. So a single battery light would get you round without a charge. In the summer on a relaxed trip there would be no need for lights at all except perhaps some small F/R to make sure you're seen on the road in bad weather.

Looking at a like for like light; an Exposure Joystick MK12 black is £160, has a max output of 1000lm and weighs 93g

It has a built-in battery that is 3,100mAh, and is USB charging.

Let's assume a charge per day, so three recharges in the above example.
Required battery capacity of 9,300mAh
Add on ~10% for charge inefficiencies, call it 10,000mAh for a nice round number.
One of my Anker packs is 321g for 13,400mAh (there will be a smaller pack; however, the extra capacity might be useful for charging other items. That and i can't be bothered looking )
Cost was about £30 ish IIRC

So, weight is 414g plus a USB charge cable
Total cost ~£190
No cables to damage, or a dynamo hub to break.

[whitestone]

Unless all your night riding was blasting downhill trails then most of the time you don't need maximum output. Selecting the right programme (from memory #2 & #3 give the longest run times at all three output levels) and then switching between levels depending on what you are riding will get you a lot longer battery life, it's quite possible that even with 6hrs usage a night you might not need to recharge it. At a bivy use one of those Drok LED lights that Stu reviewed plugged in to the powerbank.

[Asposium]

Mobile phones, plus cable
Garmin inReach, plus cable
Garmin GPS, plus spare batteries, plus charger, plus cable
Canon compact camera, (same cable as inReach)
Battery packs (one plus spare)
Mains charger (if on a long "tour")

Genuinely interested to know what that lot weighs. Wouldn't be surprised if it were more than my shelter or sleeping 'set-up'.

Weights added

http://bearbonesbikepacking.co.uk/phpBB ... 25#p141817

[whitestone]

I make that either 2.3kg or 2.6kg depending on whether you take both powerbank batteries.

For reference my UK winter bivy kit (bivy bag 500g, sleeping bag 465g, quilt 365g, sleeping mat 435g) comes to 1765g, add 500g for 1 person tarp, poles and pegs

[Richard G]

Unless all your night riding was blasting downhill trails then most of the time you don't need maximum output. Selecting the right programme (from memory #2 & #3 give the longest run times at all three output levels) and then switching between levels depending on what you are riding will get you a lot longer battery life, it's quite possible that even with 6hrs usage a night you might not need to recharge it. At a bivy use one of those Drok LED lights that Stu reviewed plugged in to the powerbank.

I think it's mostly that I use the higher output levels when I could get away with significantly less. I get quite nervous on faster downhills in the dark so I've got a tendency to stick it into the higher modes fairly often.

I think, on balance, I'd rather carry a support cell than worry about having to descend with less light than I'm comfortable with (I reckon I'd easily lose less time that way than whatever the extra 100g(?) costs me).

[sean_iow]

Looking at a like for like light; an Exposure Joystick MK12 black is £160, has a max output of 1000lm and weighs 93g

It has a built-in battery that is 3,100mAh, and is USB charging.

Let's assume a charge per day, so three recharges in the above example.
Required battery capacity of 9,300mAh
Add on ~10% for charge inefficiencies, call it 10,000mAh for a nice round number.
One of my Anker packs is 321g for 13,400mAh (there will be a smaller pack; however, the extra capacity might be useful for charging other items. That and i can't be bothered looking )
Cost was about £30 ish IIRC

So, weight is 414g plus a USB charge cable
Total cost ~£190
No cables to damage, or a dynamo hub to break.

I'd never thought about recharging a light form a battery pack I use a Mk11 joystick on my helmet so I could recharge that which would allow me to use a higher setting.

The Mk 12 joystick/Revo is not really a fair like for like comparison. The Mk12 is 1000 lumen for 1.5 hours which equates to 600 lumens for 2.5 hours. Last November it was dark enough to need my light from 5pm to 11pm when I stopped which is 6 hours so I'd of run out of light before I'd finished riding. So for 6 hours of riding at 600 lumens I'd need 3 Joysticks? Assuming they discharge faster than they recharge the second would be flat before the first had recharged? But maybe 2 lights and a battery pack would do.

I'm no longer worried about hub failure. My first lasted only a few hundred miles but the exchange replacement is the current improved version and has lasted over 2000 miles so far so I think they've got on top of the bearing issues now... fingers crossed. For me the convenience of having a light which will run indefinitely without having to think about charging or switching power levels is worth the extra cost IMO. Plus as an added bonus it makes you quicker as you're trying to keep the speed up to get full power on the light

[whitestone]

It's more about remembering to switch to the appropriate level for you and the trail you are on. No point in having a light on full power on a long forest track type climb or a bit of hike-a-bike. Similarly having the light on the lowest setting for a technical descent "just because" isn't using the tool at hand correctly.

This is my Strava activity for my last "day" on the Highland Trail https://www.strava.com/activities/1017775757 (ignore the straight line between Ft William and the top of the climb out of Glen Nevis, I forgot to restart the GPS after changing batteries in Ft Bill). From memory I turned the light on at around the 19hr mark, for the next three hours it was on low but the route is either flattish forest track, canal tow path, road or uphill forest track. For the next bit it was on medium. By the time we got to the descent into Kinlochleven it was daylight. So 3hrs on low, 2hrs on medium.

Sean, one thing I've thought about is just using a dynamo during the day to recharge a powerbank battery and/or the battery in the Joystick then recharge things like the GPS at night while I'm kipping. You've got the double loss of charging two batteries to offset against that though. I've not used a Revo so don't know how it compares to the output of the Joystick - I don't know the lumen values of the Joystick at the various settings either.

[padonbike]

Unless all your night riding was blasting downhill trails then most of the time you don't need maximum output. Selecting the right programme (from memory #2 & #3 give the longest run times at all three output levels) and then switching between levels depending on what you are riding will get you a lot longer battery life, it's quite possible that even with 6hrs usage a night you might not need to recharge it. At a bivy use one of those Drok LED lights that Stu reviewed plugged in to the powerbank.

We're singing out of the same hymn book, Bob.
Got the Exposure light before Xmas and it's set on 3, got the Droks last weekend.

[sean_iow]

Bob, you can work out the power at each setting based on the run time. Mines a Mk11 and I have it to hand as I rode to work and leave it on my helmet all the time.

The Mk11 is 850 lumen for 1.5 hour on setting 1 and High. If you multiply these you get 1275 lumen-hours. If you divide this by the run time from a setting you'll know how bright it will be. So programme 6 gives 4 hours on high and 12 hours on medium. These two outputs are 318 lumens and 106 lumens respectively. I usually use either this setting or setting 5 which is 425 on high lumens and 127 lumen on medium.

These figures seem quite low but firstly, the joystick has a narrower beam than my revo so these lumens are doing more as they are concentrated in a smaller area so you see further than the same output from a wider beam, if that makes sense? And secondly it's surprising (as I'm sure you know) how little light you actually need to ride at night, or at my speed anyway, as opposed to what the marketing people try to convince us we need which is the equivalent of a ww2 searchlight on the bars

[Richard G]

It's more about remembering to switch to the appropriate level for you and the trail you are on. No point in having a light on full power on a long forest track type climb or a bit of hike-a-bike. Similarly having the light on the lowest setting for a technical descent "just because" isn't using the tool at hand correctly.

Yeah, I'm usually pretty regimented about turning it down (because I know how many times I've had it run out on me before).

I suspect I might need some carrots though, because I really struggle to see in the dark.

[whitestone]

Sean. Thanks. One quick spreadsheet later and my programme #3 low setting works out at 35 lumens If anyone said you only needed a 35 lumen light to be able to ride at night they'd be laughed at. For me it's more than enough for low/zero technical ground but I'll bump it up to the medium level even on roads if it's a long downhill, even then that's only 106 lumen.

[sean_iow]

I think at my speeds the lower settings allow me to see more, provided there is some moon light. With a very bright light my eyes adjust to that and the surroundings are pitch black. On a lower setting the extra light allows me to pick out the ground condition/hazards in the beam but I can still see the peripheral area using the natural light.

[Asposium]

I make that either 2.3kg or 2.6kg depending on whether you take both powerbank batteries.

For reference my UK winter bivy kit (bivy bag 500g, sleeping bag 465g, quilt 365g, sleeping mat 435g) comes to 1765g, add 500g for 1 person tarp, poles and pegs

Most of that will be common to many.
A phone of some type
A GPS for navigation
Some people carry a tracker.
Packs and charger are only for multi-day trips, no need for a weekend.

Your winter sleeping bag and quilt combo is very light.
My winter sleeping bag (-10C comfort rating) is about 1.1kg, don't take it bikepacking.

[whitestone]

I've used that setup down to -6C which is about as cold as you are likely to get in England most of the time. I am a warm sleeper though. If it is genuinely forecast for much colder temps then I've a full on expedition bag that weighs 1800g! It's a real monster though, I used it once last year - in Finland in February - the time before that was in Scotland at New Year and it was way too warm (bag and conditions). I've had it twenty years or more.

My wife has the Cumulus 350 quilt which is rated to -4C. That together with my PHD sleeping bag would be more than good enough for anything in the UK other than truly exceptional cold snaps. See this page about layering bags and quilts https://support.enlightenedequipment.co ... t-Layering

[benp1]

Sean, how are you working out runtimes and power on Exposure stuff? (unless I missed it, sorry if so)

One other thought is the Exposure back up battery doesn't weight a LOT less than a joystick, so you could carry two lights as have one backup the other

My battery packs got taken on the way back from Lapland, left them in my hold luggage. Need to get another one or two (the handwarmer one was in my hand luggage so still have that, which is good as it's ace!)

[sean_iow]

Sean, how are you working out runtimes and power on Exposure stuff? (unless I missed it, sorry if so)

One other thought is the Exposure back up battery doesn't weight a LOT less than a joystick, so you could carry two lights as have one backup the other

My battery packs got taken on the way back from Lapland, left them in my hold luggage. Need to get another one or two (the handwarmer one was in my hand luggage so still have that, which is good as it's ace!)

I have explained it for Bob above, but basically the run time multiplied by the output is a constant, well close to it (advised to me by Exposure when I bought my Joystick) so my Joystick is 850 lumen for 1.5 hours which is 1275 lumen-hours. Divide this by the run time of the setting to get the output.

I've got an exposure support cell for my Joystick which doubles the run time. But if going on a longer trip then 2 lights would probably be the better option, I think the support cell can only be recharged from the mains charger where as the light can be recharged from USB so you can't use a battery pack, but I'd have to check.

Do they confiscate battery packs from hold luggage?

[Richard G]

It's not a guarantee, but because of safety issues, batteries aren't supposed to be kept in hold luggage...

...so yeah, if they find them, they'll remove them.

[benp1]

Thanks Sean, sorry for making you reexplain. I didn't think that a calc like that would work (due to things like battery discharge curve) but if thats the advice from Exposure then all good I suppose!

I was fine taking them out there in my hold luggage, but they were removed on the way home. Just glad I took the USB handwarmer in my rucksack, would have been gutted to lose that. I lost two Anker battery packs, but double 18650 and one single. Now need to replace them... Shame

[sean_iow]

I didn't think it would be as easy as that to calculate the outputs but exposure said it's a good enough approximation. I assume that you'd get slightly longer than calculated on the lower settings as the led is cooler but I'm no expert.

I need to invest in a battery pack next but only for topping up my phone on multi-day trips, I use it as my camera.

[ZeroDarkBivi]

Unless all your night riding was blasting downhill trails then most of the time you don't need maximum output. Selecting the right programme (from memory #2 & #3 give the longest run times at all three output levels) and then switching between levels depending on what you are riding will get you a lot longer battery life, it's quite possible that even with 6hrs usage a night you might not need to recharge it. At a bivy use one of those Drok LED lights that Stu reviewed plugged in to the powerbank.

I think it's mostly that I use the higher output levels when I could get away with significantly less. I get quite nervous on faster downhills in the dark so I've got a tendency to stick it into the higher modes fairly often.

I think, on balance, I'd rather carry a support cell than worry about having to descend with less light than I'm comfortable with (I reckon I'd easily lose less time that way than whatever the extra 100g(?) costs me).

I have a diablo (probably 4 or 5 years old) and struggle to get through a 12 hour night with sufficient light. I found it consumed even more battery with the 'tap to change brightness' function activated, so I have gone back to using the button.