Saving weight (and money?)

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whitestone
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Saving weight (and money?)

Post by whitestone »

This is a spin-off thread (sic) from the cuben fibre discussion looking at best bang-for-buck weight savings. Ideally a weight saving costs you nothing, perhaps best exemplified by not taking an item! Backpackers talk about the big three items: shelter; sleeping bag; rucksack. On the bike we tend not to have rucksacks so the next biggest item is probably a sleeping pad.

For the sake of argument let's assume you don't have the relevant kit or have some cheap and nasty item and having caught the bikepacking bug you are looking to replace it with something decent. Items are for UK late spring to autumn use, say mid-April to October. Once you get into winter then you start needing much more specialist kit (and more kit!) Starred options are the ones used in the final summary.

Sleeping Bag

Use a quilt rather than a sleeping bag. The main reasoning behind a quilt is that the insulation under you gets compressed and therefore doesn't work as intended so remove it. Removing the back of the "bag" also means removing the hood so more weight saving. Which bag/quilt you go for does depend on how warm/cold you sleep so a couple of options. The best "bang for buck" quilts are probably Cumulus, Alpkit are the sleeping bag representative. (I had a look at PHD and also ultralightoutdoorgear and while those bags are lighter than the Alpkit equivalent they are very much more expensive)

Warm sleeper so comfort rating around 4C - 7C:
Alpkit Pipedream 200 weighs 545g and costs £146
*Cumulus 150 quilt weighs 375g and costs £141

So 170g weight saving and £5 cheaper!

Cold sleeper, comfort rating -4C
Alpkit SkyHigh 500 weighs 970g and costs £159
Cumulus 350 quilt weighs 585g and costs £181

So 385g weight saving for an extra cost of £22

This is almost a no-brainer! :-bd Providing you get on with a quilt, not everyone does, then you are either saving weight and money or saving weight for very little extra cost.

Sleeping mat

Unlike a sleeping bag which has a range of temperatures in which it's comfortable a sleeping mat just has a lower recommended temperature so a mat that's good enough for winter is also fine in summer but the opposite isn't necessarily true. The usual suspects are those from Exped and the Thermarest NeoAir range. The easiest way to save weight is to reduce size (length) but there's also the option of reducing the insulation.

Full length NeoAir XLite is 460g and £155
Short length NeoAir Xlite is 207g and £110
*Klymit Inertia XFrame is 175g and £65

Another no-brainer! Not only are we saving weight but also significant cash. Win-win! Either a saving of 250g and £45 or 285g and £90. The Klymit is meant to be used with a sleeping bag to fill in the "holes" but I've had no problems in summer when using it with a quilt.

Tarp/tent.

This is where cuben fibre comes in!

Alpkit smallest tarp is 300g and £55
Trekkertent equivalent sized cuben fibre tarp is 125g and £140

So to save 175g would cost an extra £85. Not worth it unless you've done everything else and want to treat yourself.

Stove

A gas stove like the Pocket Rocket and its clones weigh 44g upwards and cost from £24 up.
*A meths stove such as the BB 8g weighs, well 8g, and costs £22. If you make your own from a couple of pop/beer cans then the weight is 10g and a cost of zero.

Weight saving of 35g+ and a cost saving of 100% plus a warm inner glow from recycling what would be waste.

The real difference though is in the fuel - meths isn't as energy dense so you need more of it but then gas requires a sturdy container to hold it. For short trips meths is the clear winner as 100ml is enough for an overnighter or possibly two nights. The cost of camping gas cylinders is exhorbitant and for the same price you could buy enough meths to last the best part of a year.

Taking the winners from the above, going for the lighter options (starred) saves you a total of 490g and is £120 cheaper. If you then decided to get the cuben fibre tarp you'd end up with figures of 665g lighter and £30 cheaper.

The above surprised me somewhat as I thought that the cost of the lighter kit would be much higher than the "heavy" alternatives. I've sort of gone with what I know rather than items I know to be very light/heavy or cheap/expensive. Obviously the costings would be different if you already had decent kit - I've a PHD summer bag that cost £170 and weighs 470g(?) so the quilt would be a cost of £141 to save 100g.
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GregMay
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by GregMay »

How much weight can you personally save?

Body mass.

My current bikepacking setup has increased in weight by 4.5kg since the TDR. It's not due to changes in equipment.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Very good that Bob. I know I always say this but, knowledge weighs nothing and this is in part an example of that. By engaging brain before opening wallet, it's surprising what you can gain / lose. Perhaps the hardest part for the newcomer is learning to trust their choices ... buying a bag rather than a quilt or a tent rather than a tarp ... is the most difficult part as it appears to place more onus on the ability of the user rather than simply relying on the kit.

RE: sleeping mat. Substitute any of the above with a ccf mat and there'll be a considerable weight and cost saving.
How much weight can you personally save?
Yes, another very good point often overlooked because it's neither easy or convenient.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by sean_iow »

whitestone wrote: Ideally a weight saving costs you nothing, perhaps best exemplified by not taking an item!.
This is what I need to work on, when I look at other peoples bikes at events they seem to have much less luggage then me, although sometimes this is off-set by the fact I've seen their bikes leant against a wall at the start and although I've got all my kit on the bike and no rucksack when the owner returns to his lightly loaded bike he's wearing an enormous rucksack. That aside I need to be ruthless with what I take from now on.

Bob - just for reference, I've just ordered a 150 quilt, including an extra baffle to make it longer and delivery it was £176
GregMay wrote:How much weight can you personally save?

Body mass.
This is also a very good point. I need to get on top of this as I'm about 7lb more than I was last summer and Ideally I'd like to be 1 stone less than I am but with no loss of power.

I was once in an outdoor shop in Ambleside and witnessed a very angry customer shouting at the poor lad behind the counter because the brand of ultralight jacket he wanted wasn't available in XXXL. This chap was a minimum of 25 stone so 200g less jacket wasn't going to make the hills any easier. No offence meant to any 25 stone 'boners on here.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by middleagedmadness »

For me as just starting out was not to much about weight saving but getting kit I could use 90%of the yr it's been quite a long process to get reasonable kit at the right price , managed to get a exped down mat for £60 in Gaynor outdoor sale ,got a vango 3 season down bag ( not the best I know but ok for now) for 75 with discount codes cooking stuff I already had in the for of a trangia but downsized it to one of there small collapsible triangles , tent is my old vaude taurus UL 1.3 kg .after this year I'll start looking at what works best and then tinkering with what I can get away with , everything above fits easily into my bar bag with tent poles slotted into possum
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by whitestone »

GregMay wrote:How much weight can you personally save?

Body mass.

My current bikepacking setup has increased in weight by 4.5kg since the TDR. It's not due to changes in equipment.
There's already a thread for that! :lol:

I do agree with you though Greg - if done correctly it's a long term lifestyle change. In the last five years I've weighed between 98kg and 78kg, I know which one I'd rather be.

Stu: what was that Viking proverb I sent you? “A Better Weight Than Wisdom a Traveller Cannot Carry.”
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by Asposium »

what about saving weight on the bike itself?

once picked up someone's 29 plus thingy bike.
the weight of it was shocking.
throwback to the 80's when frames were made from pig-iron.
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whitestone
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by whitestone »

Saving serious weight on the bike usually means serious money :shock: Plus the bike has to actually cope with what you want to do. My best man is a serious weight weenie and will buy very light road bikes (he doesn't go mountain biking) and the frames will invariably crack, sometimes it's the wheels. The bikes are just too light for his weight, he's about the same as me, but he won't accept that a bike that's maybe 1Kg heavier will actually be better and not really slow him down.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Simple things like taking one waterbottle rather than two, could save a kilo. If you're unsure about possible water sources, take a filter and the weight saving could still be over 800g. Even things like buying a jacket with a hood so you don't require an additional hat all add up.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by BigdummySteve »

For me the WRT really kick started the weight loss program, mostly I’ve gotten rid of stuff. Strapping a drybag to the bars lost me 400g and I sold the harness to prevent a relapse :-bd a penknife I’d never used taken out, spring water bottles function the same but weigh less
I went out at the cafe racer about 41lb, about my limit at the moment but I’m hoping to break the sub-40 at the next WRT weigh in :-bd
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by ScotRoutes »

FWIW I remain unconvinced by the quilt concept. I've looked at a few options and have yet to find one that matches the warmth/gram ratio of a decent sleeping bag. It's definitely NOT a no-brainer.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

FWIW I remain unconvinced by the quilt concept. I've looked at a few options and have yet to find one that matches the warmth/gram ratio of a decent sleeping bag. It's definitely NOT a no-brainer.
Difficult to compare Colin as quilts aren't EN tested, so really it comes down to experience and the ability to judge how much insulation you require to keep you warm in a given set of conditions. Personally, a sleeping bag containing 250g of down will to me, be a 'summer' bag but I'll happily push a quilt containing the same amount / spec of down a few degrees lower.
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whitestone
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by whitestone »

Colin, I did write that it was almost a no-brainer and depended on whether you got on with quilts. They don't work in every situation and unless you are a particularly still sleeper usually require some form of strapping to hold them to the sleeping mat.

Edit: I suppose the piece is as much about the "thinking" of kit selection as anything and not to assume that the lightest is either the most expensive or the most suitable in every case. Kit, techniques, ideas move on - I've a quality 1980s down gilet that is as heavy as a modern sleeping bag for example! (maybe a slight exaggeration :roll: )
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by psling »

whitestone wrote:Saving serious weight on the bike usually means serious money :shock: Plus the bike has to actually cope with what you want to do.
Interesting concept considering the purpose of your thread to save weight and money. Consider the money savings if everyone was still riding around on their old 26" wheeled bikes - lighter wheels, stonger wheels, lighter tyres and eminently fit for purpose - and not a single penny spent on keeping up with wheelsize trends - 29", 650, boost, plus, fat...

26" Hardtails - ideal for bikepacking, lighter with stronger wheels than their modern big cousins! Think of the weight and money you could have saved!! :cool:
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by RIP »

Nice one Peter for playing the 26" card :-bd. Saves me embarrassing myself mentioning it again too. Just you, me, and most of the so-called 'non developed' world left then :smile:. I do so like a nice cold hard bit of steel between my legs - all 11.6kg of it. Sorry I mean 25.5lbs.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by padonbike »

I recently experienced buying a Klymit Inertia XFrame from amazon and I must admit I was pleasantly surprised by what happened. Although the Item was listed on amazon.uk it was quoted as £30 and would be sourced from amazon US.
Amazon said they would estimate import costs at £7 and refund if less, but cover the extra themselves :o and the actual shipping from US was £6 so total cost of £43 coming in about £20 cheaper than UK.
Postage was very quick too, arriving in around 10 days that included the Xmas period!
Now I've just got to actually use the bloody thing :roll:
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by whitestone »

Aagh! Not the 26" vs 29" argument again :lol:

Interestingly I've a Cotic Solaris which is the 29er version of the Soul (this used to be 26" but is now only 27.5"). My wife has one of the last 26" based Souls. Apart from her bike being 2x10 and mine being 1x10 there is very little difference in weight, less than 1kg. The bikes are to all intents specced the same: Reverb dropper post, Shimano brakes, Hope wheels with Bontrager tyres, X-Fusion forks, obviously in their respective sizes. (Since weighing them I've swapped to a set of carbon forks so it's no longer a valid comparison)

Here's Hopes figures for their latest XC wheels: Complete standard wheel weights: 26" F 760g R 890g // 27.5" F 793g R 916g // 29" F 807g R 932g

I make that 89g difference! From other figures on their site it's roughly equal between spokes and rim. I honestly thought it would be more than that.

Edit: Cotic quote 4.5lbs for the current medium Soul and 4.9lbs for the current large Solaris (both are the middle weight in their respective lineups) so that's just 180g difference. Again I'd have though it would be more. The Bonty tyres are about 30g heavier in the 29" flavour. Sum total of around 330g for the differences.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by pistonbroke »

Re 26" vs 29", you have forgotten the most bikepacking friendly aspect of this. A 26" wheel will spin faster at a given landspeed so generating more power from the dynamo at lower speed. On that basis Stu's shopper horror makes absolute sense as the perfect bike, as of course, does the Forager bike linked on the bike lust thread.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by thenorthwind »

Ah, a topic that could keep a bikepacker engaged in thought for a good while.

A couple of things to add:

<nerd>As has probably been said elsewhere, to really get to grips with this, a spreadsheet with weights of all your kit is invaluable. And I mean all of it. Best done on returning from a kit. Half an hour with the scales while you strip kit off the bike and you've got all the numbers there in front of you. You can see where the big weight savings are to be made.</nerd>

If you're considering price (and even if you're not), you should also consider durability. Is it worth saving 50g on a piece of kit, even if the cost is the same, if it's going to wear out after a couple of trips and need replacing? Not to mention the environmental cost. To paraphrase an old saying: cheap, light, durable - pick 2 (if you're lucky).

And to add my agreement to two very good points that have already been made:
Kit is a very personal thing (see quilt/bag debate).
Kit with wider usage (e.g. quilt combined with light bag, rather than 3 season bag) has extra value.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by RIP »

'Argument' - hehe, blue touch paper lit and standing back :smile:. Of course in This Place it's really just friendly banter :wink: ... I can actually see the point of having the choice of a 3" difference (although the original claimed 'advantage' that they "roll over obstacles so much better" was a big turn off for me - where's the fun in that was my reaction), but That Stupid Diameter other one is a giant con trick. 3/4" radius difference? I can fit a 26" TYRE that could give that if one so desired without being scammed another sales ploy needing a whole new damn bike. Harrumph!
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by Asposium »

psling wrote:
whitestone wrote:Saving serious weight on the bike usually means serious money :shock: Plus the bike has to actually cope with what you want to do.
Interesting concept considering the purpose of your thread to save weight and money. Consider the money savings if everyone was still riding around on their old 26" wheeled bikes - lighter wheels, stonger wheels, lighter tyres and eminently fit for purpose - and not a single penny spent on keeping up with wheelsize trends - 29", 650, boost, plus, fat...

26" Hardtails - ideal for bikepacking, lighter with stronger wheels than their modern big cousins! Think of the weight and money you could have saved!! :cool:
:lol:

Especially judging by the bike history thread
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by sean_iow »

thenorthwind wrote:As has probably been said elsewhere, to really get to grips with this, a spreadsheet with weights of all your kit is invaluable..
Over the Christmas holidays I somehow ended up with lots of bits of kit in the dining room. One evening I thought (was asked) if I could tidy it up. Upon starting I began to wonder what the various items weighed, so got out the kitchen scales and started weighing stuff and noting it down. Once I'd finished the kit that was already out I then started to get out more to add to the list. Imagine my wife's delight when she came to check on tidying progress to find that not only had I not put anything away but now I have twice as much stuff spread across the dining table, the scales and a notepad :lol: I do have a spreadsheet now with just about all of my kit on :smile:
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by whitestone »

sean_iow wrote:
thenorthwind wrote: I do have a spreadsheet now with just about all of my kit on :smile:
I don't know what you mean :???: :ugeek: :wink:
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by Ray Young »

Pop can stove. I made one and although it cost nothing to make I found it a bit fuel inefficient which meant carrying more meths so I bought one of Stu's 22g jobbies. Less meths to carry and money saved in the long term. Just a thought.
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Re: Saving weight (and money?)

Post by psling »

RIP wrote:Of course in This Place it's really just friendly banter :wink: ...
:-bd

A couple of things I'll often consider in choosing kit:
#1 - how small it will pack (can sometimes be more important than its weight).
#2 - how many different functions can a single item do rather than carrying several different items that each do a single task.
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