Crossduro Wales

[restlessshawn]

This looks interesting, pretty sure I could take the lantern rouge

http://grit.cx/news/2017/10/free-bikepa ... duro-wales

[Bearbonesnorm]

Race / Bridleway / Strava doesn't sit easy with me especially after all my 'talks' with the CSP of late and why didn't they use the bridge 20 yards upstream?

[restlessshawn]

It's technically not a race as such, more like 5 ITT in a route that you get an aggregate time for, you are never racing for 'position'?

CSP?

They don't seem to have much kit to survive in wales

[Bearbonesnorm]

CSP?

Countryside services ... the people who 'control' anything RoW or access related.

It's technically not a race as such

Maybe not but the word 'Race' is used quite a lot in the bumph.

[ianfitz]

CSP?

Countryside services ... the people who 'control' anything RoW or access related.

It's technically not a race as such

Maybe not but the word 'Race' is used quite a lot in the bumph.

Like in the name of the organisation arranging it for one.

[restlessshawn]

That is a good point, not great marketing

[GregMay]

Similar format to another persons events in my local. I avoid them like the plague. Timed sections and bridleway in England is a great way to get us kicked off trails for good.

[sean_iow]

They don't seem to have much kit to survive in wales

I noticed they don't seem to have much kit with them. I did wonder if it was transported to the overnight stop for them seeing as it's at a pre-determined location?

So it's a bikepacking race that not a race and you don't bikepack? Sounds like a good idea for an event though and split over 2 days it does make it more manageable, hopefully they'll get more entrants for the second running.

Edit, looking at the pictures again maybe they aren't of the actual event? Just the locations?

The timed sections on bridleways does worry me but I guess it depends upon how the entrants approach it. If they are flying along shouting at other trail users to get out of the way it doesn't help our cause, but as the timings done by stealth there's no reason for anyone they pass to be any the wiser. a cheery 'hello' and being courteous doesn't cost that much time in the grand scheme of things and goes a long way in helping the image of cycling in the countryside.

[Bearbonesnorm]

It's easy to think that we live under the radar but I think people would be surprised to discover just what does get scrutinised and 'looked into' by those with the ability to make life difficult. It should be remembered that generally 'these people' see in black and white and perhaps don't have the same understanding as we might. The word 'race' really is enough to to get people interested who you'd much prefer weren't. As a community, I believe we have a responsibility to each other to try and safeguard these things and try to limit any unwanted attention. Using the word 'race' is like a red rag to a bull and while someone might just say 'f*ck 'em I'll do what I want, by doing so, they're also saying f*ck 'em to the rest of us.

Sorry if that all sounds quite negitive but it's how it is.

[whitestone]

I'm with you on this Stu. Back in 2001 when Foot and Mouth kicked off there were some on the UKClimbing forums basically saying "sod 'em, I'll go where I want". A couple of posts later the manager of one of the local estates pops up with a response. I happen to know him and he's not a climber.

Quite easy these days to search and Google/Bing tend to display recent posts on forums quite high in their results.

Do the same laws regarding bridleways apply to Wales as well as England? I'm assuming they do since the Welsh Assembly isn't devolved to the same extent as the Scottish parliament.

[Bearbonesnorm]

Do the same laws regarding bridleways apply to Wales as well as England?

They do Bob.

[GregMay]

Well put Stu.

It gets worse when the people saying f*ck em, are the people who are trying to make money from it too.

[restlessshawn]

I tend to forget about all this ROW stuff living in Scotland tbh

[Bearbonesnorm]

I tend to forget about all this ROW stuff living in Scotland tbh

I think the talk of giving Wales access rights similar to Scotland is actually putting people more on edge and maybe even slightly more millitant at the moment.

[GregMay]

Do you think it would actively help the economy Stu? Like the trail centres have?

[Bearbonesnorm]

I think it might in some areas Greg but probably the one's that already have a fairly high number of visitors. Somewhere like here, that doesn't see many folk would probably require some reasonable investment in path clearing, signage, etc before people would feel happy venturing out ... obviously this applies far less to people here.

An issue here (kind of related) is that motorsport is popular and that's often the thing which is 'pushed' and does bring in visitors. Trouble is, unlike many cyclists / walkers, those coming for motorsport tend to be more self-sufficient and don't really bring much cash in. To a degree it can feel like a plague of locusts descending on the land, taking what they want then simply buggering off. It's Rally GB soon and I know that I'll spend the weeks after walking round Hafren picking up beer cans, wrappers and packets and wondering why people feel the need to set fire to piles of tyres ... it's quite sad.

EDIT: A change to access law will bring no benefit to the landowners and if anything will probably put them under more pressure to maintain paths, gates, etc. They're a very strong lobby, so I can see some kind of financial incentive required if anything really is to change. Without it, a change in the law is likely to become little more than a wedge.

[Matt]

....and they left the gate open

[GregMay]

Interesting insight Stu. I do agree that open access would be a boon for us as riders/runners/horse-ists/paddlers, as a whole - but economically it'll be most beneficial for the places we actually want to visit rather than the area as a whole. Similar problems here, lots of great upland that I wish we could access officially by bike, but the actual benefit to people going up there is not going to bring in any money as they are areas that are so far removed, people will turn up with food/fluid/kit, park up, do their thing, then move on to a cherry spot for a beer afterwards.

[Cheeky Monkey]

I've had both Strava data and the route title "Hard'n Fast" (Harden as in the Moor) used in access discussions to demonstrate what wankers riders are.

It's a ridiculous but real risk, IME.

[whitestone]

Most people, for a variety of reasons, are somewhat resistant to change. Rather than saying "We want this" which tends to put people's backs up you have to "sell" the benefits: People using the local facilities so those facilities remain viable and therefore open during winter, etc. This in turn encourages the younger generation to stay in the area and so on.

From what I can remember from back "when I were on the farm" there's no requirement for landowners to actually maintain rights of way only that they don't block them or prevent access.

Signage - The Sandstone Way uses small stickers as signage, low cost and relatively unobtrusive. I've seen similar in the Massif Central in France.



Edit: Many years ago (probably nearly 25yrs) we were in Scotland and asked to fill out a survey of outdoor users. The usual questions about where you were from; how many days you were in the area; type of accommodation; daily spend, that sort of thing. The resulting report was kept back from publication for some time since it showed that the benefit to the Highland economy of walkers, climbers, cyclists, etc. was significantly more than that from shooting and fishing plus more of the monies generated went to the local economy.

[Wilkyboy]

Race / Bridleway / Strava doesn't sit easy with me especially after all my 'talks' with the CSP of late

It was a surprise to me when Dee mentioned on Saturday that timed-riding of bicycles on bridleways is forbidden — I had never heard of it being so specific before, I thought it related to all "racing", but no. Everything else is okay to time, just bikes are forbidden from being timed on bridleways. Dee wasn't entirely certain of the date of the legislation, but inferred somewhere back before 1850 (that is not a typo) — so right up there with "wanton and furious driving" for up-to-dateness.

I bumped into the other rider in the big photo (not Nic, the one in front) while on WRT in May on the gravel track W of Mynydd Bychan, just around the corner from BB Towers. Nice chap, said he was out scouting routes for what has turned into this event. Can't remember his name, tho ... “Mostyn”, I think ... I thought it funny that they were the only two riders on the event.

[ianfitz]

Race / Bridleway / Strava doesn't sit easy with me especially after all my 'talks' with the CSP of late

It was a surprise to me when Dee mentioned on Saturday that timed-riding of bicycles on bridleways is forbidden — I had never heard of it being so specific before, I thought it related to all "racing", but no. Everything else is okay to time, just bikes are forbidden from being timed on bridleways. Dee wasn't entirely certain of the date of the legislation, but inferred somewhere back before 1850 (that is not a typo) — so right up there with "wanton and furious driving" for up-to-dateness.

As I understand it an (at the time slightly paranoid) horse lobby managed to get ' race or trial of speed' included in the 1988 Road Traffic Act amendment (section 31.1) so it's possible to apply to close roads/footpaths/other tracks for races (motor/horse/cycle) but not bridleways.

That's actually the only bit of law that stands here - and why reliability trials (which is what the BB200 is) and MTB orienteering are technically OK but I wouldn't want to be part of trying to prove that as new case law!

[GregMay]

Previous XC races I've been involved in helping plan have included the building of a bridge over a bridleway so as to allow the race to go in a certain direction on private access land. Anyone organising a race should be fully aware of what they can and can't do with regards to bridleways. Running timed sections on land you've got right to use...certainly, go for it.

The law is what it is with regards to racing on bridleways.

The reliability side...as Ian says, it's a real grey area that currently exists. For how much longer with a review of the cycling legislation a potential, we shall see

[whitestone]

Here's the regs Ian is referring to http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/198 ... view=plain

[pistonbroke]

To hopefully add more light on the "racing on bridleways" issue. Those of a certain age will remember the Man vs Horse vs Bike event that took place in Llanwrtyd Wells until the mid 1990's. It was a big event attracting legendary riders such as Tim Gould, David Baker and Barrie Clarke, the year I plucked up the courage to enter, a local nimby found the old statute prohibiting cycle racing on bridleways, Dee is correct in saying the legislation dated back to the 1850's. Since then the race has been restricted to runners and horse riders and still uses routes that I spent many years racing enduro motorbikes along and bits of forestry road that featured on the RAC rally bitd.
Having organised Trailquests around mid Wales for 10 years up until the early 2,000's and served on the governing body, the work-around they use is that events are Score based rather than the fastest time "winning." MTBO which is point to point in a specific order are more problematic and tend to be held on private land and are ok in Scotland.
I'm sure that the majority of these budding event organisers are blissfully unaware of the legalities and I guess the only time that it is likely to become an issue is if there is some sort of claim by an injured rider or a disgruntled landowner decides to sue the organisers for what is, in effect, an illegal event.