Bike lust.....

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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby restlessnative » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:07 am

Love the look of the truss fork but to be honest prefer the standard diamond frame...though I have never ridden a Jones.

Has anyone ever tried drop bars on one? Looks like it would work pretty well. I have 1.5 years to decide what bike I am buying myself for my 50th and I need to start making some decisions so that I have time to change my mind 100 times :???:
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby Bearbonesnorm » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:54 am

Not sure how well drops would work on a Jones - they're pretty 'roomy' up top.

Just returning to ebb - having had / got bikes with Bushnell, grub screws and split clamp shells / inserts, the split clamp has caused me far less issues, has never slipped or creaked and doesn't worry me anytime I point a spanner at it :wink:
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby sean_iow » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:11 am

Bearbonesnorm wrote:...doesn't worry me anytime I point a spanner at it :wink:


You're skills are somewhat better than the average bike owner though :smile: I've seen things which are worrying. I bought a bike for the wife from a local small ads, it was obviously brand new and I think the bloke had bought it mail order to save money. The disc brakes dragged so much that peddling on the flat was like riding up hill, I tried to change to an easier gear but they were so badly indexed that it was only just possible and it was trying to change gear all the time. He was selling it as he said he "didn't use it as much as he thought he would", I'd say he'd only ridden a couple of hundred yards at most based on the condition and didn't use it as it was un-ridable. He was a qualifed mechanic at a VAG main dealer :o
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby thenorthwind » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:33 am

He was a qualifed mechanic at a VAG main dealer
:lol:
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby firestarter » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:56 am

I've had numerous solutions worse was a pf30 ebb on my shand bloody horrible ate bearings creaked and costs a fortune

Sliding dropouts were Good on the inbred but on my karate monkey I changed to a bolt in rear hope set up to avoid having to remove the rear caliper if I got a puncture

The bushnell on the Jones seems problem free so far

My ramin and old singular use split bb which I've not had issues with

But my favourite by miles was the alternator dropouts on the salsa, simple but effective
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby jameso » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:15 pm

It was meant partially tong in cheek


Gotcha : ) From the number of EBBs I've seen that have poor tolerances, it'd be a fair point. And Bushnells do tend to highlight imperfections in the shell ID. The reason we use a split shell on the Pinnacles was that though machined out after welding and HT, it still helps pull it all into place better, gets more even contact than a radial bolt or other non-Bushnell wedge EBBs tend to.
Stripping bolts would need some real ham-fistedness :grin: and missing the point that something is wrong if you need to go past 10Nm or so? Sometimes they are out a bit but the bolts won't pull a bad one into place fully. I see the Jones has thread inserts, possibly for avoiding that risk, also will pull the shell in more evenly when tightened. Anyway .. EBB geekery... sorry.

Has anyone ever tried drop bars on one?


Personal opinion disclaimer etc .. Very briefly, didn't like it much. Bear in mind I love the bike with loops - drops felt like tying one hand behind your back. The TT isn't long so it didn't feel stretched, or truly bad as such, just felt limited the bike compared to what it's capable of with the only advantage being in headwinds on the road. I could see a light Ti Jones with flare drops making a nice roadster, but not for me. The bike's main advantage imo is how technically capable it is for a rigid bike, on road it's comfy but overkill perhaps.
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby Bearbonesnorm » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:30 pm

The TT isn't long so it didn't feel stretched

Do you not find them long James (obviously not)? Saying that - does yours have a 23" TT? My last excursion was on a 'plus' with a 24" TT and I'm a PORG, so that probably accounts for the long feeling?
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby jameso » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:06 pm

Stu, mine's a 23" TT and I'm 6ft so it felt fine, short if anything as the reach is short / SA is slack. Didn't ride it more than 20 mins though, with untaped bar and road levers on mtb cable brakes and SS gear.. that was enough to say I wasn't into it. Was just curious.
Edit, now I'm thinking I should try it again, damnit.. :grin:
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby restlessnative » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:05 am

hmmm 23" tt makes it only as long as my 16" inbred (unless my maths is broken)

Pics if you do it please Jameso!

Might drop Jeff an email see what he thinks :geek:
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby jameso » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:49 am

But the fit and geo of the Jones makes that comparison not much use. I'd have a tenner on predicting some of what Jeff would say about drop bars ... :grin: I expect I'd agree, they make no sense on an off-road bike. I like them though, to a point. Go past that point and H-bars are way better.
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby psling » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:40 am

I don't know why but I've got it in my mind that Jeff Jones rode with Nitto Moustache style bars when he first developed his space frame and before he developed his loops; probably wrong though, hazy memories.

by jameso » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:49 pm
But the fit and geo of the Jones makes that comparison not much use.
...which of course is part of the whole concept of his one size fits all design and it's great that he had the character to put his design ideas out there (and his ability to actually ride the things so well!).
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby jameso » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:09 am

psling wrote:I don't know why but I've got it in my mind that Jeff Jones rode with Nitto Moustache style bars when he first developed his space frame and before he developed his loops; probably wrong though, hazy memories.


Probably, easy way to test an idea. M bars are an old idea. He welded up some H-bars pretty early on though, the spaceframe came after the H-bar, was on a Jones 26" bike with a sus fork that had a TT layout like the Stooge.

by jameso » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:49 pm
But the fit and geo of the Jones makes that comparison not much use.
...which of course is part of the whole concept of his one size fits all design and it's great that he had the character to put his design ideas out there (and his ability to actually ride the things so well!).


It does fit a wider range than conventional bikes but I'm not convinced 1 size fits all optimally. I may like the bike as much as I do as I'm the same height as Jeff (just lacking even 50% of the skill). Interesting that he has a few more sizes now, would like to hear the reasons were for that. Fine-tuning the fit I guess.
His ideas are so influential though, agreed, just comes from common sense critiques of bikes that you don't get from following the path that 'what's out there must be right so I'll just make small incremental changes'. We wouldn't have got Fisher G2 29er geometry or 29+ when we did if it wasn't for Jeff talking to people with bigger volume brands that have the ability to tool up and start wider trends. He was doing revised mtb fork geometry and 50mm rims and the biggest 29" tyres he could find way before anyone realised the true benefits, all going against the ex-roadie mentality of the 90s-2000s bike designs like Bontrager's cut down rims, long low front ends etc (edit to add, reading that back, Jeff might have learned a trick or 2 from 60s French rando bikes, he's pretty open about how much influence he gets from old bikes). And it does help that he's a skilled rider, gets the potential of the bikes across well. I've ridden through and out of situations on my Jones that amazed me, situations that have been certain crashes in the past on conventional hardtails, as I reacted and started to sight up my crash spot I was halfway out of the problem and then looking at the bike wondering how it just happened. Something in that bike's balance and fork, wizardry. (Sorry, easy to get onto a ramble here, a a fave subject for me - bike design and probably the most interesting designer of bikes out there).
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby ton » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:25 am

out of situations on my Jones that amazed me, situations that have been certain crashes in the past on conventional hardtails, as I reacted and started to sight up my crash spot I was halfway out of the problem and then looking at the bike wondering how it just happened. Something in that bike's balance and fork, wizardry. (Sorry, easy to get onto a ramble here


lol............am I on stw. what a load of old tosh. :grin:
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby restlessnative » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:59 pm

jameso wrote:they make no sense on an off-road bike. I like them though, to a point. Go past that point and H-bars are way better.


haha that's quite a statement :wink:

I did try loops on my mtb, i found them much comfier than a flat bar but not as comfy or intuitave as a nicely set up flared drop. Also I did not feel I had any more control than in the drops of a flared drop

Part of the problem may be I've done so much of my riding for the last few years on cx bikes with flared drops that anything else feels a bit weird...I even put flared drops on my road bike

I'll drop him a mail this week and see what he says...
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby jameso » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:06 pm

what a load of old tosh.


:grin: If you say so, but it's all just opinions and experience/perspective isn't it. Some people pick up on these differences, some don't? Or if I was prone to hyperbole over every other bike I rode and I was a pootler who never pushed himself it may be tosh. I do get to ride a fair number of different bikes and wouldn't ride this bike as much as I do (had it 6 years now) if I didn't think so highly of it.
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby jameso » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:17 pm

restlessnative wrote:
jameso wrote:they make no sense on an off-road bike. I like them though, to a point. Go past that point and H-bars are way better.


haha that's quite a statement :wink:

I did try loops on my mtb, i found them much comfier than a flat bar but not as comfy or intuitave as a nicely set up flared drop. Also I did not feel I had any more control than in the drops of a flared drop

Part of the problem may be I've done so much of my riding for the last few years on cx bikes with flared drops that anything else feels a bit weird...I even put flared drops on my road bike

I'll drop him a mail this week and see what he says...


Yeah, but only a flippant statement based on logic, if I'm being more subjective I'd say why not .. I still ride a lot of simple off-road miles on drops. From what you say it may work out well for you. I can't handle many bikes on flared drops, even wider ones, anything like as well as I might handle it on H-bars - mainly the width and the brake position. So on a bike that can handle techy stuff as well as the Jones does the drops wouldn't work for me. On a CX bike, no probs - H-bars wouldn't work for me on an Arkose.

On the things feeling weird, orback to me thinking I should try it again, in a similar way, I rode 700x25 on a road bike with std 42cm bars today for the first time in over 6 months (been on huge flare drops and a very different geo 650B all-road bike). The bars felt stupid for 20 mins. Felt a bit better after an hour, then felt more like how I remember a good road bike after 3 hours. Still felt weird in the corners. Muscle memory is a poor decision-maker on what actually works, but very good at getting us into habits. Same habits that keep bike design in a narrow range for long periods maybe. Considering we rarely get test rides of over 3 hours, or a few 3 hr+ rides in a row.
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby restlessnative » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:03 pm

Yeah I took it in that way it's alright.

Apart from problems with my thumb(s) I'm pretty sure a part of it is my inability to switch between very different setups and feel comfy due to familiarity
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby ton » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:48 pm

I was a pootler who never pushed himself it may be tosh. I do get to ride a fair number of different bikes


to be fair, i have only been a pootle for the last 7 years through illness.prior to that i was far from being a pootler.

and no disrespect but i reckon i have probably owned and ridden a fair few more, including a jones.
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby Bearbonesnorm » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:06 pm

owned

Possibly Tony :wink:

ridden a fair few more

Doubtful.
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby jameso » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:11 pm

ton wrote:
I was a pootler who never pushed himself it may be tosh. I do get to ride a fair number of different bikes


to be fair, i have only been a pootle for the last 7 years through illness.prior to that i was far from being a pootler.

and no disrespect but i reckon i have probably owned and ridden a fair few more, including a jones.


Sure, didn't mean you were a pootler Ton, more on the point I made about the Jones handling stuff in a way that suprised me, beyond past experience on other more 'normal' bikes. And no disrespect taken, who's counting. tbh picking up on and separating out what goes on in a bike isn't all about how hard someone rides or how many bikes they ride either, if it was just about numbers I wouldn't read tosh in bike reviews as often :grin:

I guess if I toned down my enthusiasm for the Jones, RE value of bikes like this etc, I'd say that it has a better chance of standing out as great bike for some riders based on the simple fact it's more different than most bikes and it's very well thought out. It's not just a variation on a theme. Same as a Geometron or Moulton. If you're looking for something along those lines and you know why it might meet your needs then it may be worth £3-4k+ or whatever you spend on it.
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby ton » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:15 pm

Doubtful.


current total is 47, which i have bought and ridden. and a few i have had a spin on.


and just to point out, it was the wizadry bit i was having a pop at.
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby jameso » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:20 pm

Jeff even looks like a wizard though, c'mon ...

and there is something that is hard to pinpoint in that bike imo. If I call it wizardry don't take it too seriously, makes a change from usual bike analysis kind of geekery. A lot of details pulling in the right direction add up to something bigger. Magic :wink:
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby Bearbonesnorm » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:24 pm

Yes, I generally term anything I don't understand as 'magic' ... there's a lot of magic in my world :wink:

current total is 47, which i have bought and ridden.

Genuine question Tony - from the 47, are there any you regret not keeping?
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby ton » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:37 pm

Genuine question Tony - from the 47, are there any you regret not keeping?



only 2 to be honest Stuart, out of them all.
a singular swift that i built with full xtr, and a ventana el capitan 29''. the only bike that i have owned that properly fit me.

a bike is a tool to serve a purpose, for me that is mainly transport. and a grand or 2 on a bike each year is far far cheaper then car commuting.
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Re: Bike lust.....

Postby ton » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:58 pm

Stu, i have just sat and composed a list of previous bikes.
present to start in case my memory fails,

solaris max
genesis tour de fer
surly ogre
cube acid 29
jones plus
salsa fargo
cube ltd 29
surly disc trucker 62cm
surly disc trucker 60cm
pinnacle rammin
surly karate monkey ss
haibike fs ebike
khalkoff ebike
ventana el capitan 29
surly karate monkey geared (stolen)
singular swift 1 x 9
singular swift xtr
chumba hx 2 29r
specialized rockhopper 29
specialized rockhopper 26
specialized hardrock
orange sub zero
nicolai helius fr
ragley mm bop
ragley blue pig
merida matts le
bontrager privateer
fisher hookooheekoo
fisher big sur
fisher tassaharra
fisher merlin 29
fisher fat possum
diamondback topange
diamondback apex
diamondback axis
raleigh mtrax
raleigh m200
cannondale t200
dawes galaxy x 2
dawes super galaxy
aravis tourer
brodie holeshot
haro mary ss
haro mary geared
on one 456 that green
on one summer season
on one 456 dark blue
kona hoss
kona hoss deluxe
on one inbred 29 sand
on one 29 inbred white
cannondale cx bike
on one parkwood
saracen eiger
muddy fox explorer
rockhopper pro (stolen)
santa cruz heckler
santa cruz chameleon x 2


i told a big lie earlier........sorry. total so far is 61. there may be more.............. :oops: :oops: :oops:

specialized sirius
specialized enduro 29
Last edited by ton on Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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