New stove, it's very dull though.

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middleagedmadness
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by middleagedmadness »

:-bd good man
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Ray Young
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by Ray Young »

Stu, do you have a price in mind and how much more efficient than your 22g jobbie? Thanks.
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Stu, do you have a price in mind and how much more efficient than your 22g jobbie?
No price yet Ray but I'll get onto it. Fuel effiency appears to be good but I will need to do a little 'proper' testing before I can say how much better it might be than a 22g.
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Matt
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by Matt »

https://youtu.be/dNsPnxkwR6c

15ml of meths to boil 400ml maybe a 18ml if you want a rolling boil
Last edited by Matt on Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

Good work :-bd

I like the way it was daylight when you fired up but just about dark when you got a brew :wink:
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Matt
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by Matt »

Was about 4:20 when we set off :-bd
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RIP
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by RIP »

Enjoyed the vid there Matt, especially your sequinned assistant! What a star.

So, have I got this right, 9 mins for 400ml with 15ml? My 22 seems to do 7 mins for 600ml with 30ml. Whatever, it matters not of course. Looks fun.

I suppose I gotta get the conical shield. Does it come with the deal Stuart? Problem is how does it fit into my "russian doll" 600ml pot? At the moment I can cram in a Ti windshield, porage/eating/drinking pot, stove, 70ml fuel, matches, scourer, spork, porage AND ovaltine bag. Can't see how a conical would go in there.

'Reg'
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

I suppose I gotta get the conical shield. Does it come with the deal Stuart? Problem is how does it fit into my "russian doll" 600ml pot? At the moment I can cram in a Ti windshield, porage/eating/drinking pot, stove, 70ml fuel, matches, scourer, spork, porage AND ovaltine bag. Can't see how a conical would go in there.
The shield Matt had was for an 8g / 450ml mug combo' which just happened to work okay with the new stove. Given that windshields are a big part of making any meths stove work well, I probably should include one :wink:
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Matt
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by Matt »

RIP wrote: So, have I got this right, 9 mins for 400ml with 15ml?
It will be steaming by 9mins but probably not boiling boil..

15ml seems to last about 12mins so you could use less fuel, it seems pretty frugal on meths.

The best thing I've found with it is it actually burns really clean, in that the flame sits nice and low on the mug without dancing up the sides too much and virtually no soot on the mug and when it's finished the stove is very clean possibly something to do with the wool but it's better than all my other stoves which are all a bit sooty and smell of meths.

The other best thing is the stability, I always had a niggle with the 8g in that it's footprint was too small and that you had to find a nice level area and balance the mug precariously on the top. This is better and with the windshield it would take some knocking over.
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whitestone
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by whitestone »

From memory (so could be totally wrong) my cobbled together beer can stove takes between 20 & 30 seconds to bloom and brings 500ml of water to the boil (mug lid is rattling) in about 5 minutes. I think it's slightly quicker than the BB 8g stove. Unsure how much fuel it uses for that, I suspect about 20ml. It burns a bit dirty though.

Sounds like the new stove burns slower but cleaner. If you are bivvying then a couple of minutes extra boiling water isn't a great hardship. Fuel efficiency might be if you were on a longer trip and using the stove every night and morning.
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RIP
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by RIP »

Mmm, 15ml does sound impressive. Something else I've vaguely wondered about is stopping heat transferring from the stove to the ground/rock. On t'Racer, I did the old stove-and-meths-under-both-armpits-while-getting-things-ready ploy, which meant it all lit fine as usual. Went out once though before it really warmed up. Maybe was another cause. Maybe it needs some tiny little legs to raise it off the cold ground. Maybe I'm just overcomplicating it :smile:.
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whitestone
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by whitestone »

I made a foil base from a pie casing :lol: Not insulating as such but will help reflect some heat. The problem with using closed cell foam or similar is that you are then putting a hot object on top and pressing down on it. Maybe a combination of foil and CCF.
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benp1
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by benp1 »

I don't really ever get my water boiling. I get it very hot and then drink it (so boiling is a waste) or rehydrate a meal, often a bit of both

I use an 8g stove, a conical windshield and a Snowpeak 450 Ti mug. Great combo, one full fill gets a full cup hot enough for drinking and rehydrating. The only problem is I put it on a cold rock it acts like a heatsink so the stove really struggles.

I also thought it was a bit wobbly but the conical windshield fixed that really well
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RIP
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by RIP »

"I made a foil base from a pie casing" - and you got to eat the pie :-bd. Will have a tinker around.
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whitestone
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by whitestone »

benp1 wrote:I don't really ever get my water boiling. I get it very hot and then drink it (so boiling is a waste) or rehydrate a meal, often a bit of both

I use an 8g stove, a conical windshield and a Snowpeak 450 Ti mug. Great combo, one full fill gets a full cup hot enough for drinking and rehydrating. The only problem is I put it on a cold rock it acts like a heatsink so the stove really struggles.

I also thought it was a bit wobbly but the conical windshield fixed that really well
I've a bit of an asbestos mouth :grin: Probably as a result of trips to the Himalaya with resulting lower boiling point at altitude then slowly heading back to lower levels.

The ideal base would be insulating but with low thermal mass to chill the stove.
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Bearbonesnorm
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by Bearbonesnorm »

A small piece of fire-blanet makes a reasonable insulating stove base.
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Matt
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by Matt »

Maybe glued to the base as an upgrade?
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benp1
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by benp1 »

That's a good shout. Don't think I have any fire blanket at home but I have other stuff that would work (some kiln lining and some carbon blanket, which I think is for welding)
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Matt
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by Matt »

As a lightweight insulator I wonder if a 3mm plywood disc glued to the bottom might work. It would weight nothing, wood is a brilliant insulator just the downside thats combustable but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't light...

Maybe a field test :-bd
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benp1
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by benp1 »

Matt wrote:As a lightweight insulator I wonder if a 3mm plywood disc glued to the bottom might work. It would weight nothing, wood is a brilliant insulator just the downside thats combustable but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't light...

Maybe a field test :-bd
Might be a challenge if (when) I overfill my stove... which has obviously never happened.
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whitestone
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by whitestone »

OK. Had to take the afternoon off work as our broadband totally failed last night and they rang this morning to say that they would come this afternoon to fix it. So, geek mode on, I decided to do a little test.

Test done indoors on stone surface with foil reflector base between stone and stove. No windshields.

Ambient temperature 13C

400ml water from the tap allowed to adjust to ambient in each mug. Both stoves were warmed in a trouser pocket for ten minutes prior to being filled. The fuel was also warmed for the same time in a trouser pocket.

BB 8g stove & Alpkit 450ml mug with lid
10ml fuel
40 seconds to bloom
At 8mins (from lighting) the fuel was exhausted without the water being at boiling point. This might have been because I'm not used to the stove or that if there'd been 300ml it would have reached boiling point. Burnt with a clean blue flame.

Homemade "pop can" stove & Alpkit 600ml mug with lid
10ml fuel
30 seconds to bloom
At 5 minutes 30 seconds (from lighting) the fuel was exhausted without the water boiling. From touch it felt warmer than the 8g stove. Burnt cleanly but with some yellow flame as the fuel began to run out.

With either stove I could have made a passable brew or used the water for rehydrating something. Without a thermometer I couldn't tell how hot the water actually was, it certainly didn't scald my lips but equally I wouldn't have wanted to take a bath in water that hot. Even though the homemade stove runs at about 30% quicker than the BB 8g stove they are comparable in terms of efficiency as each heated the water to approximately the same point (as far as my lipmus test went) so were on a par at converting the energy in the fuel into heat. The shorter run-time of the homemade stove may be explained by that stove's larger surface area of the fuel leading to quicker evaporation, the larger number of jets may also have been a factor.

I'm not sure why either stove failed to bring the water to the boil. I'm used to running my homemade stove with perhaps a little more fuel but I also tend to be boiling a bit more water so perhaps I do use more fuel than I realise.

A couple of hours later, once the broadband guys had gone, I tried again with the homemade stove. Same starting conditions.
15ml fuel
30 seconds to bloom
Water boiled at 6 minutes 30 seconds from lighting.

I left it as a rolling boil to see how long the fuel would last and it ran out at 8mins. The runtime is about right for the extra burn rate of the stove, i.e. it uses 50% more fuel than the 8g stove per minute. I usually pour fuel in until the "bump" in the bottom of the stove is just covered and that looked about the same as the 15ml I used in this test. At a guess 12ml would boil 500ml. Using the fuel bottles that are for sale in the shop section, a 150ml bottle would therefore provide me with twelve boilings: a rehydrated meal and a brew at night and a morning brew, that's four day's worth.

Stu might confirm (or not) that there's a limit to how much fuel you can put in the 8g stove so it might be better looking at this from the opposite direction and work out how much water a full charge will boil, it might be 350ml or 300ml for example.

The takeaway: characterise your own stove. Stu's stoves are probably much closer to "production line" with little variation between individual stoves. I could make another pop can stove that takes 8 minutes to boil 500ml - there's not much consistency. Equally using a different sized/shaped pot or mug might change the results.

And exit geek mode :ugeek:
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padonbike
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by padonbike »

Hoping to contribute to this, but I’m not sure Mrs padonbike had the chance to get to post office today to collect an interesting item. I’ve even obtained a thermometer from a science teacher so can measure pre and post heating! :geek:
I recently tested the 8g and 22g indoors with 20 ml meths each heating 350ml of cold water in alpkit 400g Ti mug, using perfectly fitting shield and they both produced surprisingly similar results: both took a good 90 sec to bloom and then burned out after 7.5 mins without water being at boiling point but certainly very hot and fine for reheating dehydrated meal.
padonbike
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by padonbike »

I agree with much of what Matt has already said about the BB ceramic wool stove.
Here's some extra details - fresh from the garage - where I've just been out to test it.
Weight is 15g for a very compact design around similar size to the 22g stove.
The bloom is not a clearly defined as with the 8g and 22g, when the flame distinctly "pops" out of the upper ring of holes.
With, 15ml meths heating 350g water from 8C in an Alpkit 400 Ti mug with dedicated shield, I got bloom at 2mins, then boil after a further 10 min 10 seconds, there was then sufficient fuel to simmer the boiling water for 80 seconds.
Compared to using the 8g stove with 20ml meths, the new stove is indeed more economical (15ml used) AND will reach boil.
This a prototype version that I've been lucky enough to test.
Summary (from my experience!):
8 stove will use 20g meths to heat 350ml water to temperature hot enough for dehydrated meal in around 7.5 mins after bloom.
New BB stove will use 15g meths to heat same 350ml water to boiling in around 10 mins and will have enough for simmer. (Extrapolating from this it would probably heat 400ml water to boiling but have no simmer time). [Edit - just seen that this is exactly what Matt achieved :-bd ]

They both weigh similar. At the moment the 8g may still be best for the racer, but the new BB looking the best for any other application.
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by fatbikephil »

Looks good that, count me in when the come on sale Stu. I siliconed my 8g stove to a bean tin lid - insulates from ground, is dead stable, catches spilled meths which reduces flare time and fits in a Ti cup. But liking the meths usage on the new one as this will mean a 200ml bottle will do a few days.
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Re: New stove, it's very dull though.

Post by RIP »

Sorry to continue this one. Well I'm not really cos having a 'nice' brekky is an important part of my bivi. Interesting you get some soot and a smelly after-effect on your existing stove Matt. I use bioethanol (mainly of course to annoy Stuart who doesn't like it he says :wink:) as I've droned on about before and it has no soot, no pong, and you can drink it if marooned in a snowdrift. Think Matt also mentioned new hyper-stove (TM) doesn't end up with flames licking wastefully up the pot side(s) which is obv efficient but it reminds of my main current prob and that is spotting if the stove goes out inside its shield - not obv when it happens. I need a little mini-detector-alarm thing built into the stove really.
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